Announcement

**Patrick** · 8 August 2000, 13:17

Paul, the one thing I believe that EVERYONE here will be agreement with is to go digital with any new camcorder purchase. However, any agreement beyond that could be debatable. Please don't make Brian and I and a few others fight over the benefits of Digital8 versus MiniDV again. I still have the scars from previous discussions. Use the Search function at this forum and look for D8, Digital8, DV, and/or MiniDV. You'll find a ton of information and you might even have a chuckle or two reading the parts where we all got carried away expressing our strongly held convictions. (I sometimes wonder how crazy we'd get if we were actually debating something really important! )

Having said all that, I will answer one of your questions before I let someone else have a go. As far as I know, all digital camcorders that have a "firewire" output also have a composite and an S-video output. This allows you to view your footage on a regular TV. However, keep in mind that all digital camcorders do NOT have a digital ("firewire") output. Check carefully.

One last comment. Any responses concerning camcorders and video posted here can be confusing because there are different models of camcorders available on different parts of the planet due to the various TV broadcast systems used worldwide. Being from Scotland, you'll be most interested in answers pertaining to PAL equipment.

**This_Idiot** · 8 August 2000, 13:24

Hi Pace,

Having damaged my Panasonic SVHS-C, and needing to get into DV in order to service both this forum and my alternative career as a freelance journalist (see Computer Video mag), I was recently faced with a similar decision. I plumped for DV (no contest) and ended up with a shortlist of 4 camcorders. I wasn't convinced tht D8 was a good buy in view of the falling "pure" DV prices, which put paid to the affordable Sony model on the list. The JVC didn't seem to get much in the way of rave reviews, which left the Panasonic and Canon models (I don't have my notes with me here, they're at home so I can't quote model numbers). The Pan suffered from inability to enable DV-In (at the time, I believe it is now possible), but moreover I didn't find the zoom control comfortable. So I ended up with the Canon MV200 at £600 (after much price-matching I found it at this price at Tempo). I enabled the DV-In using the easily available instructions on the net (basically just taking the front cover off the remote and using the service controls to "poke" some codes into the bios). I've been very happy with the quality of both video and "still" pictures taken on the cam, both captured to the PC using VideoStudio4 and VideoStudio III and directly displayed to my 25" TV.

Cheers

Chris

**Dr Mordrid** · 8 August 2000, 13:33

If you can afford about $1200 USD or so go for the Canon DV cams: Elura or Optura. Excellent....

IMHO the D8's are nothing more than 8mm/Hi8 cams with DV encoders attached, and with the inferior resolution to prove it.

Camcorder & Computer Video magazine seems to agree in its September 2000 issue;

"To keep the prices down, these camcorders aslso use lower-quality optics and image-processing front ends."

"As mentioned earlier, Sony is using the same chipsets for these new D8 camcorders as it did for it's 8mm and Hi8 units."

"Digital8 (Sony) could - and should - support higher qualities, but so far, probably due to marketing decisions, it has not"

Also mentioned is the fact that DV cams can record much longer because of the new LP cartridges. These are more expensive than 8mm tapes, but you get what you pay for.

Dr. Mordrid

[This message has been edited by Dr Mordrid (edited 08 August 2000).]

**Patrick** · 8 August 2000, 13:48

Heheh, yeah, I should've also mentioned the Doc earlier.

I think even Chris is trying to get my goat by referring to MiniDV as "pure" DV.

Ah, the heck with it, I'm going outside. It's not raining here for a change...

**This_Idiot** · 8 August 2000, 13:53

Nah Patrick, I was anticipating your response and tried to give a rational reason for deciding against it. While D8 was an affordable solution in the period that DV was too expensive for most of us to contemplate, when it came to my own purchase it was as expensive as DV and much bulkier and heavier.

But it's good to butt heads sometimes, just for fun ya know

**Biker** · 8 August 2000, 15:24

Hi Pace
Different horses for different courses!
Quality can bemeasured in so many different ways. My favourite camcorder for fast sport filming in wooded areas is an old obsolete Toshiba VHS. Why - the way it handles NOT being fooled into focusing on nearby objects is staggering. The way it smoothly alters its brightness as I swing from Dark to Light areas is superb. All other cameras I have tried let me down badly in this respect. The trouble is, it is only VHS quality. But for playback onto a normal 21inch TV it is perfect. Of course after being copied/edited the quality drops fast.

OK so why do I mention this, Digital recorders take very high quality video - but you may not tell the difference if you watch it on a small TV and never edit the footage.

I recently purchased a Panasonic NVDS11 in the UK. It is good, really good, but it has 2 things which irritate. The controls are different to the norm and have taken a few weeks to get used to. The other is the auto brightness adjustment when in use, can be a tiny bit jerky going from dark to light (only).

Its cheap about 585 UK pounds. and works wonderful in every other aspect. It has just about every possible type of output invented for video, still, S-VHS and Digital. Plus with dirt cheap software (30UK pounds) can enable digital video in for recording.

For a modern Camera I can heartily recommend it. - Yes there are far better at double the price, but for starting it is a good camera that will last for years.

WARNING - some of the expensive new Sony's have their controls a touch screen display only on the colour screen, SO you can not see how to alter anything at all in bright daylight !!! - I don't know how the 'dim' designer thought of that one.

Probably the same twat that cane up with onscreen video menu displays that stop evryone else from watching the TV while one person is trying to set the video up for recording !

Best of luck - think about what you want to use the camera for - and get one that does that job well.

Well you did ask for a reply !!!

Biker

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**mynx** · 8 August 2000, 17:27

Dr. Mordrid: I repair Sony 8mm, Hi8 & D8. The D8 does not use the same chipset as the others. A couple of chips are the same, but most are not.
Pace: Go to electronics stores and try out all of the options. You should check out the stats on the websites, don't listen to the salesperson. Try each one to see what you like and will do what you want. I would also recommend checking out consumer reports.

**Dr Mordrid** · 8 August 2000, 17:36

The key question is which chips are the same? It seems that the controllers for the old CCD's and image processors are obvious candidates. If so then the image quality point is validated in that those directly affect it.

Dr. Mordrid

**dchip** · 8 August 2000, 18:02

Pace, if your friend would be happiest with a small mini dv then I have to cast my vote for the Canon Elura. Hands-on experience talking here. Below is an edited (I took out the small talk) quote from my post of a few weeks ago regarding my new Elura:

"Glad my Elura arrived. The Elura is fantastic. Incredible video. Outdoor pictures in sunlight or white clouds is awesome. Indoors, under bright GE Soft Whites the video quality is still remarkable. Low-light pictures are decent but lack detail. When I pay careful attention to what I am seeing on the little LCD, I am able to find decent shooting angles in almost any light that would otherwise be suitable for reading.

I am glad I did my homework regarding image stablization. The digital zoom on this camera runs to only 48x. Normally one needs to avoid even breathing to get good pictures with the zoom stretched out that much while the camera is hand-held. Not with this unit. The optical image stablization enabled me to get great long range pictures too. The auto-focus is super-fast and very accurate. The Canon image stabilizer definately made the steadying effort payoff.

Not all is perfect with the Elura. I was aware of the internal microphones audio capture shortcomings before buying the camera. The videographer can be heard quite clear but the subjects sound like they're way across a big room, even if they are within just a few feet. The Elura's 16 bit audio setting helps some but a more powerful directional mic will be the solution. BTW, Doc, thanks again for the your comments previously that helped keeped the Elura on my short list. Glad I got it."

(sorry for the mile-long post. just juiced about the new camera)

**Brian Ellis** · 9 August 2000, 00:25

Paul

So as not to get Patrick's back up, I won't recommend you purchasing the best mini-DV you can afford But do make sure it has DV out and in, as not all of them do in the UK. You may not see the use of it at first, but you won't regret it in a year or so.

BTW, it could be you won't find the Elura in the UK, as Canon keep these fancy names for the NTSC market - they have model numbers in PAL markets, I believe. Maybe because they think N. Americans can't retain model numbers in their head (That should start some controversy )

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Brian (the terrible)

[This message has been edited by Brian Ellis (edited 09 August 2000).]

**Pertti** · 9 August 2000, 07:47

Brian,

You can't really blaim them, I would also have hard time remembering something like 393.700787401575 as a model number

**Pace** · 9 August 2000, 08:42

Thanks.

(Though I'll likely be back with more questions!)

Paul.

--
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**Elie** · 9 August 2000, 09:00

Ok, here's my choice of cameras

If you have a bit of money to spend, get the GL-1.

If you have a bit more money, buy the XL-1

If you have a bit more than that, buy the JVC DV500.

And if money is no option, buy a Sony BetaCam.

Elie

**This_Idiot** · 9 August 2000, 14:42

Hehe

Nice to see ole friends scrappin' again. Biker came up with that elusive model nunber for the Panasonic, it was indeed the NV-DS11 (although more expensive when I purchased 3 months ago). I got rave reviews, and certainly deserves a high placing on a short list. I still wouldn't wrtie off the Canon, which has optical (as opposed to digital) image stabilisation, and works well for me. Certainly the ability to enable DV-in (not an issue in North America) should be high on your priority list.

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