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  • #16
    Elie

    Where do you think many of the "Made in Japan" products are actually made? Guess what? China, of course. Japan is far too expensive a country for high-labour-intensive goods to be made. OK, they may add a few screws or something in Japan to justify the label, but many of the components, including the printed circuitry, are Made in China.

    This is not to denigrate China. I have visited quite a number of factories in China, for my UN work, and many of them are as good as factories I've visited in Japan, Europe and the USA. The difference is that a young female factory-floor operator with very nimble fingers may be recompensed with $50 a month for her qualities, where a decent restaurant meal in Tokyo could cost you more than that. I've never visited Korea, but I imagine that South Korea will rapidly grow out of its present position of "Tiger", within five years. If relations between N. and S. Korea improve, as the new administration hopes, LG, Samsung et al. will surely start up branches there, where salaries are still very small. After that has been exploited to the full, then it will be Outer Mongolia or some other impoverished State, probably ending up the chain in darkest Africa, as all the other emerging economies become too expensive. By this time, the economies of the present-day so-called developed countries will have collapsed totally, because they are no longer manufacturing anything or are totally dependent on other countries for components and the cycle will restart. No country can live uniquely on service industries for more than two or three generations because the value lies in education and without a symbosis between academia and manufacturing industry, the quality of education will suffer. We are beginning to see that already in some of the developed countries. Just think of where the best computer programmers come from. You certainly don't find them in Redmond WA, do you? That is not a keen, lean and mean organisation, such as you would find in Bangalore or Hyderabad, but a fat and sick one, which is poised for a downturn within the next decade or so. Why? Because the principal wealth of the employees are in stock options. When the share price goes down, there is a limit to the incentive to push it back up again, before discouragement sets in. In fact, I believe that the offering of stock options of more than about 5% of the employees' wealth is a sting which can really backfire, causing great discontent. This has already been made evident as part of the Enron scandal, although, please note, I am not accusing Microsoft of corrupt business practices with respect to their employees or their accounting procedures.

    So, be prepared for a constant shifting of both manufacturing sites and economies. The wise are hedgng their bets by investing in emerging economies, keeping their stakes in the developing nations and divesting from the developed countries, whose stock exchange indices are all dropping by an average of 15 to 25% per year, as the analysts are cottoning on to the problem. There may be a small rally in 2003 or 2004 but I do believe that Japan, Europe and North America are becoming a set of under-developing nations, compared with the progress of the developing ones. In other words, the world's wealth is shifting ownership. Samsung camcorders is probably a very small example of this.
    Brian (the devil incarnate)

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    • #17
      Brian is right.

      I routinely read about the business happenings in Taiwan where Ulead's world headquarters is located.

      Guess what they're constantly talking about?

      Jobs moving to mainland China.

      Folks, we are living in a dynamic, global village that changes too quickly for stereotypes to have any enduring meaning.

      Jerry Jones

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      • #18
        I'm not saying Samsung makes only crap. We've many Samsung LCD monitors in the lab (usually as OEM labeled Dell) and they are great. I'd not hesitate to buy one for myself. Maybe they make great camcorders now, but I was burned once so I'm sticking with Sony and Canon for the time being. YMMV.

        If you buy this Samsung DV cam, let us know how you like it after the warrenty runs out.

        I'm not happy with JVC's response to a warrenty problem. The local repair depot has been great, but the problem is beyond them -- looks like a firmware bug that crashes the VCR (HR9800U) microcontroller when editing an SLP recorded tape with the controls on the remote. Pulling the plug is the only way to get it going again.
        JVC sent them a new board with the same problem and shrugged their shoulders. Another HR9800U he had in the shop also had the same issue but its owner had never noticed it.

        So at the moment JVC is lower on my list than Samsung.


        --wally.
        Last edited by wkulecz; 28 December 2002, 10:18.

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        • #19
          And none of my four JVC SVHS decks has seen the shop for more than a cleaning and adjustment, but then I never use anything but SP.

          Dr. Mordrid
          Dr. Mordrid
          ----------------------------
          An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

          I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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          • #20
            Hi Jerrold,

            I had a JVC (Japanese) GR-DVM5U that simply died without warning.

            High end?

            Heh, heh.

            Who are you kidding?
            So here's the story, Samsung currently has the one DV camcorder to show off, right? We actually don't even know what lies ahead which is fine.
            What I'm actually reffering to as high end, is the following ...
            With Japanese products obviously, you have a range of products, low end/high end consumer, and then you have the prosumer/professional products. You have a choice at least and a vast product range.

            Samsung currently only has low end consumer hense this camcorder.
            Will I trust a company like Samsung for my business, I say no big time to that!


            Elie

            Where do you think many of the "Made in Japan" products are actually made? Guess what? China, of course. Japan is far too expensive a country for high-labour-intensive goods to be made. OK, they may add a few screws or something in Japan to justify the label, but many of the components, including the printed circuitry, are Made in China.
            Brian, I know that some Japanese products are made in Malaysia, Taiwan and even the US, but you have to be aware of the differences...
            let's say I am a Japanese which manufacture DV Cams, I have my blue print design schematics that I take with me to a country like Taiwan for example.
            I build the factory, I hire and train people from Taiwan and they build the product according to spec.
            If one wire is out of line, it gets trashed (hypothetically speaking).

            Japan has had the experience and knowledge for years, however companies like Samsung are entering the market now, with good products mind you, but there is always that doubt in my mind that it is made in Korea and that will be enough to steer me away from them.

            The same thing goes for automobiles. Hyundai is definetely not a Lexus

            I agree with Doc, I have the JVC 9911U, JVC 5911 and the 3911 all performing without issues.
            Of coarse let's not forget my workhorse, which I had to order straight from Japan, my Sony WV-DR5



            Cheers,
            Elie

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            • #21
              Check your JVC decks with an SLP tape. As I said the local repair place could duplicate the problem with another HR9000 series deck they had, although its owner hadn't noticed it.

              I sometimes record 6-8 hours and am then looking for maybe a dozen 1-2 minute "events" within this 6-8 hr interval. Not a standard usage, but the deck should not "crash" from using the remote to edit an SLP tape. I usually use it for normal SP stuff, but I wouldn't have bought it at all it it didn't claim to support SLP recordings. Guess I just expect too much in expecting things to work as advertised.

              Can't trigger the problem with an SP tape, but doesn't take too much searching using the editing controls on the remote to crash it with an SLP tape.

              JVC's response above my local "authorized service center" has made it very unlikely I'll being buying JVC again, the local guys tried their best but with no support from above there is nothing they can do. I can and will take my business elsewhere.

              If I can't expect my techno toys to work as advertised I'll quit buying and playing with them and take up something cheaper and more rewarding like golf :-(

              --wally.

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              • #22
                Hey Doc! Remember 'way back when "Made In Japan" meant cheap junk?

                Jeff B

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                • #23
                  There's only one Samsung DV Camcorder sold in this part of the world the VP D73 @US$750. I ruled this one out as it had no AV in. However it will be interesting to see if they release Jerry's pick in the PAL world..
                  paulw

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jeff b
                    Hey Doc! Remember 'way back when "Made In Japan" meant cheap junk?

                    Jeff B
                    I can remember when "Made in Japan" more often than not meant it self-disassembled into components before the box was opened

                    Dr. Mordrid
                    Dr. Mordrid
                    ----------------------------
                    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Wally, SLP is not for professionals!

                      I would only care about how good it records in SP SVHS mode.

                      The only time SLP is used in this house is when the wife tapes all her soap operas which add up to 5 hours At that point she doesn't care too much about quality.

                      Cheers,
                      Elie

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                      • #26
                        Elie

                        Neither is a European- or US-made Toyota the same as a Japanese-made one.

                        When they started making Mercedes cars in the USA, the BBC, in a programme called "Top Gear", reviewed one of them and pointed out things like gaps between the body panels and cheap and nasty interior trim, which you would not find in Stuttgart-made cars.

                        And comparing Lexus and Hyundai is like comparing a pro digital camera with a cheap JVC VHS-C one. You can't compare a Lexus with a Starlet, either, but they're both made by Toyota.

                        You may be interested to know that many Japanese companies also have off-shore R&D departments, where their products are developed, so that it is not necessarily true that the "one wire out of line" hypothesis would happen. R&D is necessarily VERY labour-intensive, with highly-paid labour, at that, so that the Japanese divest a lot of it offshore. I have a friend (Japanese) who lives in England who is the CEO of an English subsidiary of a large Japanese company. His R&D department is autonomous from the mother-company and staffed entirely with British chemists. The subsidiary decides for itself which products to market and the specifications. My friend and his PA are the only Japanese personnel in the whole subsidiary and their role is largely administrative and liaising with the mother-company, although he is a chemist himself.

                        I've visited a Japanese ball-bearing factory in Thailand, which also has its own research and development staff, largely Thai. The same applies to a large CRT factory I saw in China where they have developed a manufacturing technique different from that of their Japanese "masters", notably for cleaning shadow masks, which is a very tricky and critical operation. This performed better than the Japanese one.

                        Believe me, there is no slavish adherence to Japanese standards within their off-shore facilities, which have a better operational flexibility and autonomy than do their US- and European-owned counterparts. The latter are usually told what to do and that's it.
                        Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                        • #27
                          Elie,

                          The issue is not quality of the recording, SVHS at SLP is more than adaquate, its the 6-8 hr continueous recording that makes this use possible. Professional is if you can get paid for it. I'm not being paid for my "video" I'm being paid to analize irregular events and find a solution to prevent them. Video is simply a tool here. It's be nice to have an infinite budget for "tools" but get real.

                          Try searching your SLP soap opera tape to cue up the start of every commercial, If you've a JVC deck with the same "logic board" as my HR9000U it won't take more than 5-10 minutes to crash the deck. Unplugging the AC power from the wall for ~ 30 seconds is the only way to get it working again!

                          A quality product should not crash like this! A quality company would escalate the problem and provide a firmware update once the problem was duplicated. As I said, the replacement "logic board' had the same bug, what's more important is a second instance of an HR9000 series deck was shown to have the same problem -- even though its owner had never triggered it.

                          --wally.
                          Last edited by wkulecz; 30 December 2002, 07:32.

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                          • #28
                            What a fun debate!

                            My parents had an Apex DVD player, and while I was very impressed at the compatibility of the model, I was just a tiny bit nonplussed when the (then) less than 4 month old unit decided to become totally unresponsive in the middle of a rented copy of 'AI'. Basically, the movie was playing fine one second, and the next went into what appeared to be a freeze-frame. Nothing we could do, either from the remote, or directly to the unit itself, would cause it to respond at that point. This included unplugging the power and reconnecting it (to try to force it to reset). We were preparing to crack the case off of it to remove the rented DVD (doh, don't need late fees in addition to a broken player, do we. lol), when my brother turned the thing upside down, allowing the disc to slide free from the tray and out through the slot at the front. Needless to say, we finished the DVD on my own Sony DVD player.

                            As far as Samsung products go, it's been quite a while since I've owned any. I haven't yet gotten over my own personal (possibly outdated and absurd) bias against them, ever since I bought a $150 portable AM/FM/tape unit from them, and had the tape deck controls stop working within 3 months of the purchase.

                            No, I'm not rough on my hardware- it was just that cheaply made. IOW, that showed a serious lack of quality control. Other Samsung products I have looked at since then have sometimes shown such workmanship, but since that was over ten years ago now, and since the last thing I checked out was a regular 35mm camera, around 5 years ago, I'm willing to admit that things could've changed, especially from the reviews I've read of their PC LCDs lately.

                            On the other hand, different hardware is made in different locations, so maybe their displays actually are higher quality than the other devices I've looked at. In the meantime, I'll stick with the odds, and stay with the known- quality/features/bugs present on my Sony / et al branded hardware, and give up a few bucks. I personally don't like spending my money on something only to have to spend more money replacing it in half the time I intend to own it.
                            "..so much for subtlety.."

                            System specs:
                            Gainward Ti4600
                            AMD Athlon XP2100+ (o.c. to 1845MHz)

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                            • #29
                              One thing that has not been brought up yet is the effects of import taxes on products. I always thought Korean products were just cheap junk until I actually went there. The stuff that they had out on the electronics market just blew my mind. I was very impressed with the technology and the quality. It is not like the stuff that hits the shelves in the states. Why you might ask? Import taxes, in order to be competetive with the rest of teh market, especially stateside based ones they can only ship their lower end stuff. I mean wh is going to spend $800 on a microwave? It's a nice microwave, but it wouldn't sell. So the import taxes have really limited our options for product selection and quality. If you want the good stuff, you have to go over here and buy it yourself. Problem is that it isn't that cheap over there either. Smaller market drives the prices up on it.
                              WinXP Pro SP2 ABIT IC7 Intel P4 3.0E 1024M Corsair PC3200 DCDDR ATI AIW x800XT 2 Samsung SV1204H 120G HDs AudioTrak Prodigy 7.1 3Com NIC Cendyne DVR-105 DVD burner LG DVD/CD-RW burner Fortron FSP-300-60ATV PSU Cooled by Zalman Altec Lansing MX-5021

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                              • #30
                                But are not the taxes the same, whether they be Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese or Chinese?
                                Brian (the devil incarnate)

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