?????

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The president unveiled his proposal at a police promotion ceremony as part of National Police Week. He said the violent crime rate in the United States declined by 20 percent between 1989 and 1999 but still remains too high; 12,658 people were murdered in the United States in 1999, two-thirds of them by firearms.

"For every fatal shooting, there are roughly three nonfatal shootings. Folks, this is unacceptable in America," Bush said. "We're going to do something about it."</font>

(steps up on soapbox)
Yet 10 times more people died each year from smoking cigarettes and they do absolutely nothing about it. I'm not getting down on smokers here because personally I feel that smoking should be a personal choice. Just like I have the choice to drive any kind of car I want. But if that car was deemed unsafe then the government would force a recall. I think this just goes to show the hypocrisy of our current government. But that is what happens when a elite few take control of the government. The government of the USA is suppose to be of the people, by the people, for the people, not just a select few.
(steps down off of soapbox)

Joel

[cbman]

Steps up on soap box

"Nope... don't see him ma"

Steps Down from Soap Box



But yeah you are right... its just that most people (who have no use for them) see guns as bad... but cigarettes... now thats a commodity

P.S. My father used to work at a gun shop on weekends as a gunsmith... (It was his fun job)

Guns aren't bad.. people are. (Hope thats general enough)


(Edit) Realized I called people who don't like guns uneducated.. I meant the people who don't understand them or the need for them find them as just a weapon for killing people.


------------------
"Wouldn't it simplify things if Hettar, Mandorallen, and I go pick a fight with them? Five dead Murgos aren't going to follow anybody."
"I don't know if that would set to well with the Tolnedran legionnaires who police the fair," Silk drawled. "Policemen seem to worry about unexplained bodies. It upsets their sense of neatness."

From Book Two of the Belgariad, David Eddings

[This message has been edited by cbman (edited 14 May 2001).]

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">now thats a commodity</font>

No it's just that tobacco lines a lot of politician's pockets.

I mean think about this for a minute. Why is marijuana illegal? Because our government deemed that it was harmful to society. That it serves no useful purpose. Hmmmmmm???

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 15 May 2001).]

[Paddy]

It just as bad this side of the pond...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I feel that smoking should be a personal choice.</font>

What if I personally choose for you not to smoke in my vicinity?

The government, in their infinite wisdom, have also lifted all restrictions on what time of day you can now purchase alcohol... Who really thinks that this is going to actually reduce alcohol consumption???

[This message has been edited by Paddy [MU] (edited 15 May 2001).]

[az]

I do really think firearms and cigarettes or alcohol are different. I do smoke myself and I have a beer once in a while, but that's my own choice. If I get shot, it's not. I do agree that smoking and consuming alcohol should not be allowed in public, or should be restricted to certain places (this would be only fair, but still, I like the freedom I have here in germany to smoke and have a beer whereever I am ). Yeah, cars are killing people too, and I agree that everything should be done to make this happen less often, the difference is, cars are not INTENDED to kill with them. Firearms are. Maybe I'm ignorant or I don't see the big picture or I'm just a stupid german who can't understand the american way of life (I don't even know what it is, so you'd probably be right about that ), so yeah, I belong to those "people who don't understand them or the need for them". But PLEASE, tell me, why do you NEED weapons? Honestly, I can#t understand, but if you present me some good arguments, I promise to think about it

AZ

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I do really think firearms and cigarettes or alcohol are different. I do smoke myself and I have a beer once in a while, but that's my own choice. If I get shot, it's not.</font>

I do agree with you to a point. But if I get cancer due to second hand smoke or I'm killed by a drunk driver those were not my choices. And a car can even be a very dangerous weapon in the wrong hands.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Maybe I'm ignorant or I don't see the big picture or I'm just a stupid german who can't understand the american way of life (I don't even know what it is, so you'd probably be right about that ), so yeah, I belong to those "people who don't understand them or the need for them".</font>

No, we just both come from different cultures that has different views about guns.

Joel

[CHHAS]

You could always blow smoke back at him

[This message has been edited by CHHAS (edited 15 May 2001).]

[agallag]

I have a very simple rule about smoking in my car/apartment. When you're in my space, you can only smoke if you're on fire. I also think people should not be allowed to smoke around the entrances to office buildings. It's like walking through a forest fire some mornings. I have no objection to smoking when you're in a designated area, but those designated areas should be designed so no one outside that area will ever come into contact with that smoke.

As for the guns debate, I don't see how heavy handed gun laws will make any difference. Does anyone know the stats about how many gun crimes are committed with properly registered guns? I'd be willing to bet that most of them are committed with black market or stolen guns, which are not affected by these laws.

------------------
Andrew
Carpe Cerevisi

[The PIT]

I wonder how many smokers would enjoy having water constantly spilt over them (can't say beer they might enjoy it). I'd think they'd soon complain.

[az]

Well, what I do see is that in the USA sometimes things like in columbine happen, and not really seldom. I don't know why this happens in the US so often, and this is not meant offending, but certainly having guns available for sale helps. You can argue that the parents of those children are just bad parents, but maybe people should go through psychological tests at least before they're sold a gun?

And I still wait for a real reason to own a gun.

AZ

[The PIT]

Well if the quacks in the us are anything like they are in this country anyone with an Iq of one would be able to talk there way round them.

[HollyBerri]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cbman:
But yeah you are right... its just that most people (who have no use for them) see guns as bad... </font>

OK, let's look at that statement for a second.

Presumably the 4 (1 fatal, 3 non-fatal) people who were shot according to the President's statistics were not shot for some reason, such as self-defense. Assuming that they were innocent, law-abiding citizens, I'd like to ask how the populace is mistaken in concluding that "fire is bad", after getting burned. Yeah, OK, it's rather a simplistic cognitive process, but it is in fact a healthy one.

Just what, then, is the purpose of guns, and how does that relate to innocent people getting shot/killed?

Fine, I can accept that maybe the problem is people and not guns per se, but can we face up to the fact that the American cultural personality is not going to go for that? I mean, we're talking about people who object to being told to wear a helmet when cycling, and that's for <u>their</u> safety, not even that of others.

• Innocent people don't want to get shot;
• Many people who use guns are not responsible with them;
• Irresponsible people resist being corrected in their bad behavior;
• We have no idea how to correct the behavior of people who resist our good and sensible advice.

What are people supposed to do? "If you can't play nice with your toys, I'll take them away," as Mom/Dad used to say.

No, it's not the "best" solution, but it gets the job done (if somebody gets the job done). And hey, it was National Police Week. What the h*ll was he supposed to say, anyway?

----------------------------
Holly

[This message has been edited by HollyBerri (edited 15 May 2001).]

[Joel]

Well this whole thing of man killing man goes all the way back to Cain and Able. And they didn't even have guns.

And I agree with agallag about the fact that most of the guns used in the commission of a crime were gotten through illegal mean anyway. I mean come on, you think the criminals are going to care about the gun laws. Even the guns used in the Columbine shootings were gotten through illegal means. The only people affected by guns laws are the law abiding citizens.

Joel

[Jammrock]

People should be able to smoke all they want. And I should have the right to kick a smoker's @$$ if he gets any of that $#!% in my lungs.

Jammrock

------------------
Athlon 650
256 MB PC133 CAS3 from Crucial
87 GB storage from WD & IBM
Matrox G400 (it's not dead yet!)
SB Live! the original full retail, still going strong
Klipsch ProMedia v.2-400, the PC speakers that goes BOOM!
Please email me if you would like to contribute to the "Jammrock needs new toys" fund.

[cbman]

Hi.. sorry I took so long to come back.. computer timeshare problems...

I personnally don't have a use for guns... I don't have any... I don't plan on having any... I would definately not like to be shot for no reason (Or even any reason for that matter)

The issue with gun laws is that they don't work... the law abiding people who responsibly use their guns for hunting game or for competition (Which I do sometimes.. the competition part) are the people who follow the rules...

This does not stop people from illegally finding and purchasing weapons for the use as a means to hurt others.

There is no real need for firearms except to intimidate others who have firearms... its an overly complicated problems people have gotten into...

Its really hard to explain I guess...

For me I do competitions... in the competitions (about 15 of them) no one was ever hurt...

There is a new golf course beside the one highway where I live... since it opened last year 3 people have been seriously injured due to balls hitting car windshields and people panicking and going off the road.

Odd comparison with little relevance.. I know..

I am sure though that even if guns were completely removed from the face of the earth there will be something to replace it.

*On a side note... I wonder how many knifings have happened in the same amount of time that the article was covering... or agravatted assaults or Gang beatings...

So I guess to sum it up... I have no real use for guns.. Most people shouldn't have a real use for them... hunting with bow and arrow would probably be more of a challenge and safer. So there isn't much excuse to have them other than militarily to stop other people with guns from exploiting the fact.

I hope that made some sense as I am not trying to be an advocate for the continuation of the use of firearms...

Respectfully

Charles

------------------
"Wouldn't it simplify things if Hettar, Mandorallen, and I go pick a fight with them? Five dead Murgos aren't going to follow anybody."
"I don't know if that would set to well with the Tolnedran legionnaires who police the fair," Silk drawled. "Policemen seem to worry about unexplained bodies. It upsets their sense of neatness."

From Book Two of the Belgariad, David Eddings