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**cbman** · 21 May 2001, 19:11

Originally posted by Liquid Snake:
Hey, you're reffering to "most kids," right? Not "all kids?" Because I'm not one of these "kids."

Neither am I.. but my friends think I am gay. Of course.. they think their own cousin's are date material so I don't take too much stock in what they say

(Joking by the way about the gay part at least...)

Better watch your back in G@H because I am coming up (ok.. don't bother it'll be a few months yet.. )

**KvHagedorn** · 21 May 2001, 19:37

LS, I think all of us can see these things happening, no matter how old we are or how impressionable we might believe ourselves to be. It is a commentary on our value system as a whole when Mike Tyson is given many times more in monetary rewards for ten minutes of what HE does than the vast majority of people make in their entire lifetimes. I didn't accuse anyone in particular of valuing Mike Tyson above ten teachers, but our society as a whole. That is what the impressionable young see when they are trying to fit into this same society. They see money as the necessity it is, and they see the position of teacher as an unattractive one, due to low pay. Further, because it is a low-paying position in a culture that worships money above all, teachers have less respect than they may once have had. The best tend to go elsewhere, unfortunately, unless they can afford to not care so much about money anymore, like cjolley. I perceive from some of your posts that your own family is pretty well off, so you probably have not personally experienced deprivation and the desperation to escape it, but most who have would not seek teaching in America as a profession, I think.

**SCompRacer** · 22 May 2001, 01:24

Why don't you educated types set some standards that existing and future MURCer's have to pass. Cut the membership down from 8,000 {moderator feel free to step in here to correct if this number is in error} or whatever the hell it is now of just anyone to those of sufficient education you can tolerate.

Then after the "morons" are gone, you will have a master forum. Think of it, nothing but valid ideas from your intellectual peers, expressed in perfect english.

az · 22 May 2001, 02:56

SComp: I don't think this was meant against people who didn't have the luck to have a good education or even (if such a thing exists) are less than averagely intelligent (this is NOT meant as an insult, as I don't know if there really IS something like an intelligence gene) or don't have english as a first language. I think it's just meant as a reminder to those who ARE able to use the english language correctly to please do so. This would help all less educated/intelligent people (and I count myself among them, although I consider myself lucky to have a good education, english is still not my main language and there are still many things I have to and want to learn) to improve their english skills.

So I don't think this thread is meant as an offense, and the talk about school systems this thread has become isn't meant so either, because it's all about enabling people to get a better education.

AZ

**The PIT** · 22 May 2001, 03:10

Me thinks the subject is getting to serious I'm getting depressed reading it.

**SCompRacer** · 22 May 2001, 10:39

Originally posted by az:
SComp: I don't think this was meant against people who didn't have the luck to have a good education or even (if such a thing exists) are less than averagely intelligent (this is NOT meant as an insult, as I don't know if there really IS something like an intelligence gene) or don't have english as a first language. I think it's just meant as a reminder to those who ARE able to use the english language correctly to please do so......

AZ

I can understand that, but how do you qualify the less fortunate from those that are deliberate? Is it derived from the sig or the listed country of origin? Do you publicly ask, seeking to embarrass, humiliate or openly flame? Or do you e-mail them in private? Or do you just ignore them as if they have nothing worthwhile to say?

I still say look for content in the post. Education is not a guarantee of higher quality ideas or morals. Only the presentation of the material will be better.

**Jorden** · 22 May 2001, 11:03

True Scompy.
I could have emailed all native English speaking and typing people to straighten out their English

If I had known all emails, which I do not, and have no wish to know either!

But okay, you look for content in the post. I guess you mean the orginal post, so posted by me. Not any of the answers, nor the whole schoolbus/teacher thing we are at now. (Although I think the teachers are a direct derative from grammar and knowing how to use it, in a way)

Why don't you educated types set some standards that existing and future MURCer's have to pass.

Who says I'm all that educated? Because I try to speak and write my English in such a way that even a starter can understand it?

I'm inbetween correcting Holly's Dutch, and most of the times I don't even know if I'm correcting it all that well, because I've been speaking and typing more English the past years, than I have done Dutch. And even in Dutch, if I'm not sure, I pick up a dictionary, so that must make me educated

after the "morons" are gone, you will have a master forum. Think of it, nothing but valid ideas from your intellectual peers, expressed in perfect english.

And did I ever say somewhere that I would like something like that?
1. The MURC isn't mine, so I have no claim to make.
2. I wouldn't want a perfect universe, or a perfect MURC, or even perfect English.

All I asked for is for native English speaking and typing people not to confuse their their's with there and vice versa, thus making a coherent reading impossible

If there are certain kinds of people who think school should be something of the past, or that school shouldn't educate grammar, then that's their own wish. I would say, go for a Lib Dem who might hear you

Posted by az:
SComp: I don't think this was meant against people who didn't have the luck to have a good education

No it was not.

Jord.

[This message has been edited by Jorden (edited 22 May 2001).]

**Schorsch** · 22 May 2001, 11:18

Originally posted by cjolley:
I've been assuming that a German speaker in the bunch would come in and save me from my spelling.
Where is every one?
Maggi?
"streischholtzsactlschen" OMFG!
chuck

cjolley,

it's "Streichholzschächtelchen". Does that help you?

Schorsch

**HollyBerri** · 22 May 2001, 12:00

Originally posted by KvHagedorn:
Can any Europeans tell us if their experience with their own teachers was better than many of us here in the U.S?

Well as a person who was educated in the US (in New York City, for those of you who don't know me), and am now being educated in The Netherlands, I have noticed some significant differences.

The transmission of information in ordinary life seems much more valued here than I'm used to. Silly but significant examples: Every single bus kiosk I've ever been in has a mounted schedule of all the busses that stop at that stop, with the correct times +/- 2 minutes. The public clocks are correct, and often include additional information such as temperature and/or wind speed/direction. Stores put up signs to note if they'll be open on holidays, and if you don't see one, you can trust that it's because the store won't be open. If the road is being worked on, there will be signs well ahead of time that the road will be closed, and when the road will be closed. When the sign says the road will be open again, it will in fact be open again. The point being that there is a general expectation here that people want to know what is going on, that they should be told what is going on, and that the information should be correct. That is quite different from where I grew up, where the attitudes were much more lackadaisical.
People here actually know a fair amount of geography, to the extent that I am embarrassed, because I was never taught geography in school, and must watch "Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego" to have even a hope of finding many countries on a map.
Naturally, my NT2 course (Nederlands Taal 2, or Dutch as a 2nd language), which I am taking at a nearby college, is teaching me the most about the educational system here. The most stunning discovery is that the educational system here is meant to work, and in fact does work. I have been in school 6 weeks. I go to school 5 days a week, 4 half-days and one full day. I started out unable to speak a complete Dutch sentence: I had learned some words from TV, but "mooie witte tanden" (beautiful white teeth) does not a conversation make. [Note: I have been informed that the archaic construction of that sentence is confusing, so feel free to substitute "does not make a conversation". Happy, Jord? ] I could not pick up the phone and hope to understand the person on the other end. Couldn't read any part of the newspaper. Could not ask the way if I was lost in the street, or understand the answer. And shopping was a nightmare. Now, near the end of the first semester, I am able to do these things. I can speak in the present, past and future tenses. I can read quite well, to the limits of my vocabulary (which is of course a pretty big limit). I can write a thank-you note, or a letter, and even tell Jord off about a specific complaint, in Dutch, with only about 20% errors and only a few (+/- 5) checks with a dictionary. For the last couple of chapters in the computer segment of my program (my course is in sections, one on the computer and one live), the new trick has been to actually ask the question in Dutch, then expect me to choose or type the correct answer; I can usually do this, though they've even stopped speaking slowly and clearly. I now have some confidence that I could get a job over vacation a bit more challenging than factory work and be able to hack it.

In 6 weeks. And only one full day per week.

I am, admittedly, in the accelerated course, but even so-- I took 6.5 years of French (jr. high, high school, and college), and I'm lucky to be able to count to 20 in French now. I deeply wish that the education I had in my youth had shown the same determination to get the information into my head that this course has shown. I would be interested to know if anyone has taken an English as a second language course in the U.S., and if they found it as effective.

It is possible to make judgements about the effectiveness of the live teachers (we have 2 in the classroom, and 3 who serve as help and explain things in the computer class), but they are all clearly competent at their job, with a wide margin of competency (they can answer questions outside the range of the lesson plan, or the computer program). In fact, we have had several unplanned lessons because someone asked a question, to the extent that the teacher had to go get her own grammatical reference, because the one the students were issued was not adequate to answer the question we asked. The fact that she saw the need to do that without being asked, and did so without hesitation or complaint-- and gave us each the 6-page document, in Dutch-- testifies to me the attitude towards education here. The teachers want me to learn, and care that I should.

Originally posted by cjolley:
We are takeing a $35,000/year family income cut so she can go back to school to become a teacher.
I suspect that it will end up with us both being teachers.

Good for you both, Chuck! It's that kind of unselfishness that "will make America great again", and actually do so, instead of just say so. Best of luck in your new careers!!!

--------------------------------
Holly

[This message has been edited by HollyBerri (edited 22 May 2001).]

**Liquid Snake** · 22 May 2001, 12:35

Actually, I despise celebrities who can make millions of dollars a year while barely lifting a finger. My parents have always stressed the value of hard work, and hassle me everyday about getting my ass to work instead of posting here at MURC Indeed, my family is pretty well off. My father owns a very successful business, and he didn't get there without any work. When he came here in 1962, he and his parents had no money, and none of them knew any English. He had to learn all his English on his own, because he could not afford to take any courses to learn English.

Holly, those teachers must be really good. I've had nearly four years in Spanish, and if you gave me a simple Spanish book, I probably wouldn't be able to understand half of it. This year, my first year of HS, I was lucky enough to have a good Spanish teacher with a sense of humor, unlike many teachers I've had in the past. If you're curious, I attend Brooklyn Technical HS, which is overrated IMO. There are schools that are a lot worse, but there are also schools that are a lot better.

**SCompRacer** · 22 May 2001, 13:22

Originally posted by Jorden:
.....But okay, you look for content in the post. I guess you mean the original post, so posted by me.....

I look for content in all posts that I read, not just yours. Since it is a public forum, I expect to see varying degrees of communication from people around the world. SO I choose to overlook errors in spelling and diction, looking for what the person has to say instead. Others can judge and qualify individuals if they like.

My comments were based on the direction the thread took. I have no idea why you decided that they were all directed at your first post. After all we are going into three pages now, and your initial request was not that extreme. If it were, I would have said a lot more than I did on the first page.

[This message has been edited by SCompRacer (edited 22 May 2001).]

**cjolley** · 22 May 2001, 13:29

Originally posted by Schorsch:

it's "Streichholzschächtelchen". Does that help you?

Schorsch

Yes, very much. Thanks
chuck

**HollyBerri** · 22 May 2001, 13:42

Originally posted by Liquid Snake:
If you're curious, I attend Brooklyn Technical HS, which is overrated IMO. There are schools that are a lot worse, but there are also schools that are a lot better.

Y'know, LS, I've heard that about Brooklyn Tech a few times. It makes me feel sad, since I know what trouble it takes to get in there.

But hey, at least you passed the test, so that counts for something in the self-esteem column, right ?

Originally posted by Liquid Snake:
Holly, those teachers must be really good. I've had nearly four years in Spanish, and if you gave me a simple Spanish book, I probably wouldn't be able to understand half of it.

Maybe the difference is that the ability to speak and understand Dutch is really crucial to successful integration into Dutch society, thus the teachers have much more of a sense that they're doing something important. That's one of my current theories, anyway.

I know that the usual school curriculum is supposed to be important (or else they wouldn't make us sit in those rooms for 12-16 years or more), but let's face it, when was the last time most ordinary Americans used any Trig(onometry) or Algebra? We all know the point is to (try to) pass the SATs and the various other tests, and then we can forget all about it.

Even when we are required to take a second language, as I was and you are now... who cares? Americans don't travel much, and rarely to places where other languages are actively required. If you're learning Spanish, you might at least make some Spanish-speaking friends, or live in a heavily Spanish neighborhood. Otherwise, who cares, unless you happen to be interested in the language for its own sake?

Here, though, Dutch is very important, not because people don't speak other languages (they often do), but because it unifies many disparate groups of people. There are a lot of immigrants here, and speaking Dutch is part of what makes us all Dutch. A lot of that (to me) is because the process of learning the language also teaches you a lot about the Dutch cultural mindset. The way words are ordered in a sentence teaches you a lot about what the Dutch think is most important, and less important.... in Dutch, you actually have to listen to most of a sentence to know for certain what a person means to say. This is very different from English.

I think that (at least with higher education), the Dutch cultural assumption is that you are in school because there's something you want/need to know. The Dutch are very practical . So it may be that the teachers feel they have a reason to actually teach. This is unlike colleges in America, which people usually seem to attend for reasons other than actually finding out about whatever they're there for....

--------------------------
Holly

[This message has been edited by HollyBerri (edited 22 May 2001).]

**omegaRED** · 22 May 2001, 13:47

Umm, i hate to interrupt, but where does one enable the spell checker?

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Seth, are you ok ?
I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.

**HollyBerri** · 22 May 2001, 13:52

omegaRED, there should be a "Spell Check" button right next to the "Submit" button when you create or edit a post. It's part of the UBB program the forums use, not something that has to be 'enabled' in your browser in any way.

-------------------
Holly

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