What is your view on the return of the Parthenon Marbles?

[efty]

Just a brief account on the subject:

The artworks -- known in Britain as the Elgin Marbles and in Greece as the Parthenon Sculptures -- were taken from Greece two centuries ago by British collector Lord Elgin, London's ambassador to the Ottoman Empire.

For a thorough account from the greek viewpoint goto

http://www.uk.digiserve.com/mentor/marbles/

To be honest I think they should be returned, as all ancient cultural items existing in any museum around the world to the country of their origin as long as there is guarantee that the items will be preserved.

It is a shame that the Metropolitan museum has a huge collection of cypriot artifacts, something that the cypriot musuem does not. Do I have to go to the metropolitan in order to experience ancient cypriot culture??

Anyway,

have a nice weekend

Eftychios

[Dr Mordrid]

If every so called cultural atifact in the world was returned to its point of origin museums would be boring places indeed.

Dr. Mordrid

[Greebe]

Don't you think it would be nice for the the country that owns it decide?

We pay China a million a year each to "save" the panda and this is only a 10 year lease. Different but the same.

[mdhome]

eftychios, Because I'm British and I have an Anglo centric view of history, I have always loathed the idea of returning the Elgin Marbles back to Greece. These are the reasons for this.
1) They have been in Britain for a long time, and in a museum of world reknown.
2) I believe that they were taken whilst in a neglected state.
3) I dont believe that the British *stole* them in the vain of raping Greek culture. If anything there is and was a high regard in British Academia of ancient Greece.
Now, some people might argue the merits and validity of some or all of the points mentioned, while at the same time pointing out aspects that have been excluded. I am however happy to listen to any fair minded points of view and learn about the subject.

However, due to the amount of concern this causes the Greeks and because they can look after the Marbles, I think the best long term solution would be for the British Museum to make copies of them and send the originals back. Not that I like this option (I think you should have the copies), its just that we all have to live in the world together and we all have to make compromises.

Regards MD

[RichL]

You have to admit, the folks in places like the British Museums usually know how to take good care of things. We're very careful about our heritage and old stuff in general over here.

For instance, I visited Cyprus a couple of years ago. While there we were able to walk around some old Roman ruins at Paphos, including some ancient mosaic floors which were left open to the elements, with only a peice of string to discourage anyone from trampling all over it.

If that was in Britain, it would be surrounded by a ten foot high alarmed security fence, and visitors would be guided carefully around to ensure they didnt touch/steal/damage anything.
Of course, they'd be charged a not insignificant sum of money for the privilage

[Gurm]

Lefty,

I don't oppose the return of the marbles - IF y'all can take care of 'em. You've demonstrated a profound lack of that particular capability in the past.

- Gurm

[RedRed]

now gurm, you are just stirring.....

when the your country has a history going back more than a couple of hundred years.... then you can comment.....

(this is NOT anti american ----- its anti GURM!)

The Acropolis has been many thing in its thousands of years of history.... It has been a temple, a treasury, a mosque (complete with minerette), an armoury, a tourist attraction....

It was as an armoury that it was finally destroyed (4 days of shelling during the siege of athens by the venitians)..... It had undergone complete restoration at lest 4 times during its history prior to that.

please learn some history before you make flippant remarks like that....
redred

[Gurm]

Good GOD, RedRed. I know history. Substantially better than you do, I would imagine.

The point is that mdhome is correct - these things weren't taken in an attempt to rape and pilfer the culture of other nations. They were taken to protect them. Maybe the British got a little single-minded about that, but maybe not.

100 years ago, do you think that the Egyptians could or would have preserved all the antiquities that the British dug up? Heavens, no. Nowadays, they can - and many of those antiquities, when not on tour around the world, have returned home.

I understand that you feel that I am an opinionated ass. I am opinionated, certainly - but I'm also better informed and educated than you give me credit for.

And RichL also has a valid point - little care is being taken to preserve the ruins and remains that are still around. The British are QUITE anal about that sort of thing.

I'm not saying that the Greeks CAN'T take care of the marbles. I'm saying that they should demonstrate that they can.

- Gurm

[RedRed]

I'm not saying that the Greeks CAN'T take care of the marbles. I'm saying that they should demonstrate that they can.

how? a 2 thousand year business plan?

I dont think we fundamentally disagree on this, Gurm, its just that your way of putting your argument forward is SO argumentative.

I understand that you feel that I am an opinionated ass.

Again, I agree with you wholeheartedly! but forums like this are meant to have opinions..... I have no difficulty with that



I am just stirring it up...... It is just that the Greek Authourities actuall have quite a good record of maintaining antiquities, as does the Egyptian. (the acropolis was repaired and refaced several times during its life, and indeed is being rebuilt again now, the Sphynx has been reclad by several Pharoh during its lifetime). Italy seems to spend about 20 percent of its GNP on restoration (roman to renasance - ya gotta love them!)

(Md, I believe, is incorrect re protection....)
Britian may have been marketing itself as a greal protector of antiquities during the days of empire, but in most cases that was NOT the case. Many of the exhibits of the National Museum are on perminant loan, and belong to aristocratic families, who cannot affort the maintainence of these objects. Or they belong to the Crown. VERY few of the exhibits of the Museusms of Britian are the property of the State. What I am getting at is the fact that Empire WAS a substantial pilliageing exercise, with Victorian adventurers acquireing much of the wealth of three continents, the Marbles are a tiny part of this systematic looting.

RichL has a point, though it should be noted that most of the Cypriot stock of Roman antiquities is NOT freely open to the public. I understand that the state take little interest in these sites, and let commercial interests manage those that are on view. I also understand that the real 'gems' in cyprus ARE protected, but this is in a country where roman artifacts are common, so there is little percieved need to protect it all....

my tuppenceworth......
(dons asbestoes trousers!)
redred

[Gurm]

No, no.

Not a 2000 year business plan. Perhaps a "look at the nice climate-controlled high-security building we're gonna put them in, see?" and not a "give 'em back so we can toss 'em in the closet".

And while the Brits may, in fact, have been interested in ... ahem ... "acquiring" these treasures, they certainly didn't just sell 'em off - they treasured them.

And while I do understand that the Pharoahs resurfaced the Sphynx... I also understand that RECENT (1800-present) history bears out the fact that many countries just sort of let things slide.

- Gurm

[dancray]

if the greek gov't wants it back; the brits should hand it over. It's like a natural parent who's child was taken during a tough time...times are better now for the parent and the adoptees should do the right thing. Besides; since the marbles are not sentient I don't thing there would be too much trauma to the "child".

"But we're taking care of it real well" does not cut it anymore since the greeks are in a position to take care of it just as well...and historically it belongs to them to boot.

but it is doubtful this will happen as the west has a bad habit of plundering and not repaying. I really doubt the texas will ever hand back any part of texas to mexico lol...

alas, but what is the expression...history is written by the victors...not exactly a great incubator for the truth.


regards


dc

ps...now that i've prol'y p'od the brits and some yanks I'll sit back and watch the mud fly my way...lol

[Joel]

ps...now that i've prol'y p'od the brits and some yanks I'll sit back and watch the mud fly my way...lol

If the point is to try and turn this into another let's rag out on the west thread then I will close it.

Joel

[Wombat]

The past few weeks, the best way to deal with dancray is just to ignore him.

[dancray]

And why is it not acceptable to criticize the west for past behaviour when it is relevant to a historical discussion about a western nation seizing another country's art? The west has made a lot of great advancements but sadly a lot of it was on the backs of less fortunates. My statement is within this context.


I did not start this thread and not trying to upset you joel; but I am just anticipating some "slamming" of my opinion as I have been victim to it a few times ( based on my previous experience here). And it was done in good humor (note the "lol") plus I have not identified anyone personally.

I understand that you are the moderator of this posting area joel, but forgive me if I may ask...where is it included in your task list to be the defender of the west? I have not said anything that can be construed as out of context or insulting to any particular person.

If you want to chat about the other historical issues please feel free to engage me; but I request you do not shut a thread down because of something I have not done.

[Gurm]

I think the point is that "western" civilization is hardly alone in this area. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first... OUCH! MOM!"

- Gurm