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  • #31
    Originally posted by Umfriend View Post
    How does that work exactly? It seems like a hassle to me to have to transact at a fuel station every time you want to use a toll section but it may be simpler. License plate recognition seems nice. We considered that in the 90s and then the tech was deemed not be there. Also, how would this work for, say, foreign travelers? You can recognize the plate but how do you enforce recourse?
    It is quite a long section of highway, plus you can go to any Orlen fuel station in Poland (it does not have to be on the highway, you can even buy it several days in advance and cancel if you did not use it). I'm not sure if it is already operational, but there should be an online system as well.
    Other toll-roads (or sections) have toll-booths, but usually they also have an e-toll gate that works on license plate recognition (with online payment or subscriptions). My ING app also works for some toll-roads, in which case the GPS is used to verify and matched with license plate recognition.

    Foreigners should also pay, but I don't know to what extent fines are sent abroad.
    pixar
    Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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    • #32
      Old system here was vignette sticker like in Austria and other nearby countries. They demolished toll booths which increased throughput since there is no more slowdown.

      New system is licence plate recognition. You pay for 10 days, a month or a year from picked date, your licence plate gets entered. You can do it online or at the gas station. There are licence plate recognition stations and patrols.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by UtwigMU View Post
        Old system here was vignette sticker like in Austria and other nearby countries. They demolished toll booths which increased throughput since there is no more slowdown.

        New system is licence plate recognition. You pay for 10 days, a month or a year from picked date, your licence plate gets entered. You can do it online or at the gas station. There are licence plate recognition stations and patrols.
        License tracking could present problems here.

        Back in the 2012 case US v Jones the US Supreme Court unanimously held tracking someone with GPS without a warrant was unconstitutional, a violation of the 4th Amendment provision against unreasonable search and seizure. There are numerous cases at the state level now trying to apply that ruling to other means of tracking by the government. Detroit Police tried to install a license tracking system and it caused a real s**tstorm.

        This is of course different than when you turn on location sharing via Google, Apple or whoever, because you're giving consent and it's not the government.

        Of course it also means the real time GPS tracking done on shows like CSI, Criminal Minds, Law & order etc. since Jones was bullhockey. They would need a warrant, and to get that they would have to present probable cause (evidence that a crime was being or had been committed by the suspect). No sticking a GPS tracker on somebody's bumper like a wad of gum in a fishing expedition.
        Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 26 June 2023, 19:18.
        Dr. Mordrid
        ----------------------------
        An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

        I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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        • #34
          In other news,

          Lucid will be using NACS, and will be providing electric drive trains to Aston Martin.

          Hyundai is evaluating NACS

          Adopted NACS

          Tesla
          Ford
          GM
          Rivian
          Lucid
          Aptera

          Announced evaluating NACS

          Stellantis
          Hyundai
          Dr. Mordrid
          ----------------------------
          An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

          I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Dr Mordrid View Post
            License tracking could present problems here.

            Back in the 2012 case US v Jones the US Supreme Court unanimously held tracking someone with GPS without a warrant was unconstitutional, a violation of the 4th Amendment provision against unreasonable search and seizure. There are numerous cases at the state level now trying to apply that ruling to other means of tracking by the government. Detroit Police tried to install a license tracking system and it caused a real s**tstorm.
            It is also strongly regulated here - we have high personal data protection laws in EU (GDPR). With the roadside cameras, they are not tracking cars with gps, the systems cannot be linked and can only be used for the intended purpose of billing. It has been in use for quite some time and so far no scandals regarding abuse of the data have surfaced... (it may be a matter of time)
            It fits in with trajectory speed control checking, where they check your average speed over some section and that average speed cannot exceed the speed limit.
            pixar
            Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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            • #36
              Another NACS adoptee

              Volvo (Polestar)

              Adapters for 2024, NACS sockets in 2025.

              Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 27 June 2023, 10:07.
              Dr. Mordrid
              ----------------------------
              An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

              I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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              • #37
                SAE International will standardize NACS

                SAE = Society of Automotive Engineers (ground vehicles and aerospace)

                Bye-bye CharIN (CCS)



                SAE International Announces Standard for NACS Connector, Charging PKI and Infrastructure Reliability

                2023-06-27

                Key Initiatives Contribute to Interoperable, Secure and Reliable EV Charging

                WARRENDALE, Pa. (June 27, 2023)*– SAE International today announced it will standardize the Tesla-developed North American Charging Standard (NACS) connector. This will ensure that any supplier or manufacturer will be able to use, manufacture, or deploy the NACS connector on electric vehicles (EVs) and at charging stations across North America. Ford Motor Company, General Motors, Rivian, and a number of EV charging companies recently announced plans to adopt the NACS connector through adaptors or future product offerings.

                The standardization process is the next step to establish a consensus-based approach for maintaining NACS and validating its ability to meet performance and interoperability criteria. The Joint Office of Energy and Transportation was instrumental in fostering the SAE-Tesla partnership and expediting plans to standardize NACS—an important step in building an interoperable national charging network that will work for all EV drivers.

                “Standardizing the NACS connector will provide certainty, expanded choice, reliability and convenience to manufacturers and suppliers and, most of all, increase access to charging for consumers,” said Frank Menchaca, President, Sustainable Mobility Solutions, an innovation arm of SAE’s parent company, Fullsight, which focuses on initiatives that lead to net zero transportation throughout mobility sectors.

                The new SAE NACS connector standard will be developed on an expedited timeframe and is one of several key initiatives to strengthen the North American EV charging infrastructure. This includes SAE-ITC’s Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) for cyber-secure charging. In close cooperation with National Labs, SAE also is contributing to reliability design for the national ChargeX consortium.

                “Taken together,” said David L. Schutt, CEO, SAE International, “these efforts will contribute substantially to SAE’s commitment to secure, clean and connected transportation, accessible to everyone. We’re delighted to do our part in aligning the excellent efforts of industry with those of government entities like the Joint Office to advance sustainable mobility on a national level.”
                Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 27 June 2023, 10:41.
                Dr. Mordrid
                ----------------------------
                An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                • #38
                  I wonder what this will mean for private imports... In Poland you sometimes - more often than in Belgium - see imported US cars (recognizable as either the models are not sold here, or the indicators are different even if the colour was changed). I'm not talking about manufacturer imports for the other market, but just private ones.
                  Europe is going full CCS, US apparently are going NACS. I know there are conversion possibilities, but still... I wonder if manufacturers don't see some added benefits in isolating the markets that way.
                  pixar
                  Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by VJ View Post
                    It is quite a long section of highway
                    We have no long sections of highway. I would not be surprised if or highways have the highest density of highway ramps and exits. But yes, if license plate recognition works well now at reasonable cost then that could work I think.
                    Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
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                    • #40
                      Volkswagens Electrify America subsidiary will be including NACS in their Network. It remains to be seen if North American Volkswagen vehicles will use the socket.
                      Dr. Mordrid
                      ----------------------------
                      An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                      I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                      • #41
                        Now three states are requiring nacs in order to get charger subsidies; Washington, texas, and now Kentucky. More on the way. With state's chiming in and SAE involved it seems to be a done deal.
                        Dr. Mordrid
                        ----------------------------
                        An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                        I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                        • #42
                          Nissan has joined the NASC adoptees. VW and Hyundai are still evaluating, and some others may wait until the SAE finishes their publication which is on an accelerated schedule.
                          Dr. Mordrid
                          ----------------------------
                          An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                          I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                          • #43
                            The only two car makers remaining to sign on are are Volkswagen and Stellantis

                            Also,

                            BP and LG have signed on to buy white label and produce Superchargers, respectively.


                            ​​​
                            Dr. Mordrid
                            ----------------------------
                            An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                            I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              SAE International has published the NACS standard, and the White House has flip-flopped, now supporting it

                              Standard could help boost consumer confidence in EVs as the White House, the auto industry and other stakeholders strive to encourage mass adoption.



                              VW, Audi, Porsche and Scout will adopt NACS. The only major holdout is now Stellantis.

                              https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_US/2023/products/Volkswagen_Audi_Porsche_and_Scout_Motors_brands_to _implement_the_North_American_Charging_Standard_in _future_electric_vehicles-34786.html
                              Dr. Mordrid
                              ----------------------------
                              An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                              I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Very interesting video on hydrogen.
                                In the renewable energy space, a lot of excitement is building up around green hydrogen. This is a clean way of making hydrogen that does not require carbon ...


                                Main takeaways: prices are coming down, 50kWh required to make 1kg H2 which is equivalent of a gallon. As prices of renewable energy come down it will become competitive.

                                It is already competitive in commercial forklifts - better than batteries. Another area is trains. In North America due to specifics 99% of tracks are not electrified so hydrogen is viable to replace diesel. Hydrogen trains are already a reality. Honda, GM, Cummins are players. Toyota also has new H2 models coming up.

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