Tesla S Sedan 300 mile range, $50k

[Mehen]

http://jalopnik.com/5185844/tesla-model-s-sedan-concept-49900-seven+seater-electric-to-hit-streets-in-2011

Here are all the details. The Tesla Model S Sedan will have a 300-mile range, 45-minute fast charge capability, a 0-to-60 time of 5.5-seconds and seat seven. Production supposedly starts 3rd quarter of 2011.

Tesla claims the Model S sedan will be produced at a rate of 20,000 units per year, with an expected 3rd quarter of 2011 start of production and an expectation of mid-2012 for when they hope to hit that 20,000-per-year number.

The Tesla Model S Sedan will supposedly have a 300 mile range from its floor pan-located, easily removable battery pack which Tesla claims will have a quick-charged capability allowing it to partially charge in just 45 minutes. The company is considering renting customers a long range battery pack for long trips. The regular batteries are available for lease and are expected to last from 7 to 10 years depending on use, but expect closer to 10 for normal use. The entire car will be covered under a warranty, the length of which is expected to be between 3 and 4 years.

The interior features 2 LCD screens, one displaying the gauges and one mounted centrally featuring a full touch screen. Seating has five seats facing forward with two seats folded down into the trunk space that flip upward and face out the back of the Model S. We don't have pictures of it, but Elon Musk tells us it's true so it must be.

Sport and AWD models are being planned, but the stock model can run 0-60 MPH in 5.5 seconds using its single-speed transmission.

The Tesla Model S will be built in Southern California, while the drive train is manufactured in San Jose. Although we initially believed they might be using a Mercedes platform, but we're now told personally by Tesla's Elon Musk the platform is their own design and they plan on manufacturing it themselves. Where they'll come up with the tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars necessary to accomplish that is anyone's guess.

If they can get anywhere close to that mileage I'll be impressed.

[Dr Mordrid]

Better get impressed then because very recent advances in LiION tech are coming to market before then, making the Volt's battery lighter, the Tesla's more powerful and all of them cheaper and faster charging.

Thank you MIT

[Gurm]

Awesome! Uhh... y'know, in a "paying twice the money for a vehicle that uses up what little lithium there is on Earth so that we can still burn fossil fuels to make electricity to power it" sort of way.

Around here, electric is more expensive than gas. Until you figure out a way to get my local utility to stop charging me $600 a month during the winter, this is a non-starter for me.

Also it would help if we weren't putting 200-lb. lithium packs in the thing, since I'm kind of OPPOSED to depleting all of our resources for an interim product.

AAAAAND I'd like it to cost LESS than TWO BMW 3-SERIES.

But hey, it's shiny and it makes car companies look less like the greedy stupids they are, so why the heck not?

...

...

Sorry, I'm in a snitty mood. I know you guys are all excited about this.

[Gurm]

Just for the sake of argument, the Honda Odyssey we're buying:

- REALLY seats 7, instead of just saying it does.
- Has a 450+ mile range.
- Has a one minute "fast recharge" capability.
- Runs off the existing "recharge" infrastructure available in all 50 states.
- Can also run an AC, carry your stuff, etc.
- Costs half as much.

Woo!

[VJ]

Gurm:
your argumentation holds ground... but... IMO, you have to see it like this: if people with enough money spend it on cars like this, it helps to break ground towards cheaper electric cars, infrastructure, etc. It is also Tesla's long term planning to introduce cheaper cars as time moves on.

On the lithium-aspect, I have no answer... just that it shouldn't be that big a problem to recycle it once the cars get scrapped (this now also happens with laptop batteries, or even regular batteries - Belgium is currently at the top with over 59% of batteries being recycled, well ahead of a EU directive says that by 2016 45% of the batteries needs to be recycled).

The electricity generation is another point, but there are technologies that help toward clean electricity (solar, wind, and in the long term nuclear fusion). IMO, high investments in research toward nuclear fusion is mandatory: we are now at the point were we know it will be feasable, the sooner we manage it, the sooner we have clean electricity.

[Gurm]

On the lithium front... nobody recycles here. Europe is a wonderful place filled with lollipop trees and chocolate waterfalls and recycling. Here in the USA, people throw things away. I'm not DEFENDING this, just pointing out reality. Even when you DO recycle, often the recylcing company just burns the stuff.

As for electricity - nobody uses alternative energy here either. In fact, every time someone proposes using some, people scream until it is vetoed. Here in the lovely state of Massachusetts, they've been trying (with some vigor) to create a wind farm... and failing miserably. The primary sources of power in the USA are oil, coal, and did I mention oil?

(Yes, there are a couple nuclear plants, and a few hydro plants... most of Nevada is hydro power from Hoover Dam.)

I understand the IDEA of the rich buying the prototypes, but it sounds suspiciously like the Republican economic policy of trickle-down economics... in the really real world I predict a lot of plug-in electrics stranded 10 miles from an electrical outlet. AAA will rake in the cash!

[rylan]

I wish they used some of the hot air from our state politicians and governor to power the wind farm....

[KRSESQ]

I understand the IDEA of the rich buying the prototypes, but it sounds suspiciously like the Republican economic policy of trickle-down economics... in the really real world I predict a lot of plug-in electrics stranded 10 miles from an electrical outlet. AAA will rake in the cash!

Think of them as early-adopters. Remember how expensive plasma tvs were 10 years ago? Only the rich and/or the manic videophiles bought them. EVs are the new plasma tv, or cdrom, or macintosh. In ten years lithium will be a none-issue. And you'll be able to buy a cheap electric car at Bestbuy.

Get in on the ground floor, folks.

Kevin

[Dr Mordrid]

Awesome! Uhh... y'know, in a "paying twice the money for a vehicle that uses up what little lithium there is on Earth so that we can still burn fossil fuels to make electricity to power it" sort of way.

Until gas goes back up to $4.00 or more a gallon, probably this summer again. Deflation of the dollar plus OPEC production cuts.

Around here, electric is more expensive than gas. Until you figure out a way to get my local utility to stop charging me $600 a month during the winter, this is a non-starter for me.

Electric heat? We pay about $90/month for electric and at most $120 for gas heat during a cold winter month (97% efficiency Carrier furnace). Summer gas bill runs $20, and that is mostly Federal fees & access charges - maybe $3 - $5 to run the hot water/month.

Also: the Volt would cost ~$0.80 to charge/night at our rates, or $24 a month to drive 1,200 miles (30 days x 40 miles/full charge worst case (max discharge), assuming you plug it in every night). I don't know about you but we're paying one helluva lot more than $24/month for gas/vehicle.

Also it would help if we weren't putting 200-lb. lithium packs in the thing, since I'm kind of OPPOSED to depleting all of our resources for an interim product.

LG Chem's CPI CEO did a local interview on WJR (huge news-talk in the midwest) and ROTFL'ed at that old and outdated saw. With the new nano-techs much, much less lithium is required to make cells these days, and it's dropping fast.

His estimate was that with their tech the worlds Li reserves would make around 30 billion Volt-type batteries using today's tech, and that that number will increase significantly before Volt production starts because of new techs in the pipeline. GM confirms this by saying the Volt II (2012) will use a much smaller battery with the same 40 mile range. Hell....the Volts battery has gone through cell chemistry/design updates due to that just since GM got the first road test cells last year.

AAAAAND I'd like it to cost LESS than TWO BMW 3-SERIES.

But hey, it's shiny and it makes car companies look less like the greedy stupids they are, so why the heck not?

Sorry, I'm in a snitty mood. I know you guys are all excited about this.

Using the current paradigm; expensive batteries and low gas prices. As noted above gas prices are going to go up and batteries down. Also; can you fill a |Beemers tank using a roof mounted solar panel?

[Gurm]

Until gas goes back up to $4.00 or more a gallon, probably this summer again. Deflation of the dollar plus OPEC production cuts.

OPEC = evil. "We control the world's oil. Let's raise prices!" ****ats.

Electric heat? We pay about $90/month for electric and at most $120 for gas heat during a cold winter month (97% efficiency Carrier furnace). Summer gas bill runs $20, and that is mostly Federal fees & access charges - maybe $3 - $5 to run the hot water/month.

Yup. We pay about $150+ a month when NOT using AC or Heat. It might come out to less, lately. I've been averaging $500-ish a month this winter with normal use + heat. Yes, this place we're renting has electric heat. It seemed a good choice given that when we moved (August) oil prices were set to be record high this winter... which never happened.

Also: the Volt would cost ~$0.80 to charge/night at our rates, or $24 a month to drive 1,200 miles (30 days x 40 miles/full charge worst case (max discharge), assuming you plug it in every night). I don't know about you but we're paying one helluva lot more than $24/month for gas/vehicle.

Welcome to Taxachusetts!

LG Chem's CPI CEO did a local interview on WJR (huge news-talk in the midwest) and ROTFL'ed at that old and outdated saw. With the new nano-techs much, much less lithium is required to make cells these days, and it's dropping fast.

To go a whopping 40 miles.

Using the current paradigm; expensive batteries and low gas prices. As noted above gas prices are going to go up and batteries down. Also; can you fill a |Beemers tank using a roof mounted solar panel?

You can't REALLY fill up a Volt that way, either. It's just not enough juice.

[Dr Mordrid]

To go a whopping 40 miles.

The 40 miles was chosen for a very good reason: 85% plus of US drivers only drive 37 miles a day, so the vast majority of daily driving can be done without burning gas or E85 (it is a flex fuel). The range extender was put in to cover the exceptions.

You can't REALLY fill up a Volt that way, either. It's just not enough juice.

A 1-2 kw solar panel mounted on the garage/house roof charging a battery pack (could be el-cheapo deep cycle lead acids or NiMH's) during the day could be used to charge the vehicle overnight through an inverter. Even more practical when you consider most people won't even come close to the 37 mile/day US average - we're closer to 10 and that's counting both vehicles - so the batteries will hardly ever get to full discharge (actually the 40 mile range is with a discharge to 30% for increased battery life - which can be tapped in an emergency).

And let's not forget the range extender - out to almost 400 miles using fuel.

This option is being considered by GM and some municipalities are even starting to consider solar powered charging for city parking spaces (Northridge, California and UC San Diego's "solar trees")



Very much becoming practical now that panels costing less than $1/watt are coming to market, and the makers are saying 'down the road' prices after the economics of scale set in could be as low as $0.15/watt.

Also, a Volt, Provoq and Ampera option will be a roof mounted solar panel that can partially charge the battery while it's parked and power its low current accessories when it isn't

Prius is getting one too, but I think its scope is limited to running accessories

[Gurm]

That's an interesting average. I think you'll find that it only applies to a certain segment of society. I did, indeed, drive less than 37 miles a day last year when I merely had to run to the train and back. Now, even my to-the-train is a 20-minute drive which pushes the limit of that range.

[gt40]

That average number is really useless. It means that on the odd occassion you want to go see gramdma, or go shopping out of town, or take a trip to the countryside, or etc etc. You are going to need to have another vehicle on stand-by.
I'm going to buy a $50,000 vehicle and then turn around and buy another $20,000 one so I can actually get somewhere.
That's really responsible in terms of resources, isn't it.

[Dr Mordrid]

That average number is really useless. It means that on the odd occassion you want to go see gramdma, or go shopping out of town, or take a trip to the countryside, or etc etc. You are going to need to have another vehicle on stand-by.
I'm going to buy a $50,000 vehicle and then turn around and buy another $20,000 one so I can actually get somewhere.
That's really responsible in terms of resources, isn't it.

You misunderstand the Voltec system. Unlike straight EV's (Tesla etc.) it has an ace in its back pocket - the range extender generator.

Once the battery is down to 30% the range extender starts up and provides power to the electric motor giving a full range of 400 miles. This means that the 40 mile range is no limit on its range. If the tank runs dry (you're stupid if it does) the remaining 30% charge of the battery can provide a limp-home mode.

Gas-equivalent EPA composite rating is expected to be over 100 MPG.

In gen I of the Volt this will be a flex-fuel normally aspirated Opel 1.4 liter with a generator attached operating at fixed RPM bands for efficiency. In gen II (2012 model - fall 2011) a new 1.0 liter will take its place, along with an updated battery with the same capacity but lighter and smaller.

The range extender also starts up in very cold weather, providing power to drive the car until the battery is up to operating temperature - minutes at most as the battery has its own environmental controls. This is another advantage over straignt EV's.

Cold weather testing was done in northern Canada and here in Michigan, 30 mule vehicles total (Volt running gear in a Delta II Cruze chassis), and we had a doozey - very cold, snow covered and icy, so they got a real shakedown. NO battery or range extender problems.

Starting in June 2009 (just 3 months) a production line starts up to make integration vehicles: full Volt bodies and running gear. They will get the first completed vehicles around July and make hundreds for full field testing around the nation (and perhaps a few in foreign countries) - so watch for them.