Thank you George....

[Gurm]

Well, when we fly to Orlando to see my parents, we get the $60 each way super saver fare. The baby flies free, so that's 4 seats... $500ish.

That's cheaper than gas down and back, at today's prices. $4 per gallon, 25mpg highway, 1250 miles. That's... 100 gallons of gas down and back, which works out to $400.

So it's cheaper... but this assumes no wear and tear to the car. In reality, I'd need to change the oil before and after, which adds nearly $75. And I'm putting 2500 miles on a car. And in reality nobody can drive straight through without stopping, so add in $50+ for a room... add meals... it's pretty much a no-brainer.

[ND66]

We have 3 kids, so we’re talking 5 tickets to fly.

Our Honda Odyssey averages 25MPG on the Expressway. And that’s driving on average 70~75MPH.

From our doorsteps in Chicago to Orland DIS resort - 1280 Miles - we used around 55 Gallons of fuel.

I think I’m done flying on vacation for a while……

The only good thing in all that driving, Odyssey seats are very comfortable, just like the 1st Class seats on the airplane comparing them to any other minivans out there.

.

[DukeP]

In theory, Driving 1 person to a destination can easily be more fuel consuming than flying.

Our old single engine plane uses around 1 liter of gas per 8 kilometers (around 18.8 MPG). That sounds easy to beat, but for longer destinations, the direct route saves a pretty huge amount of miles traveled (and theres no red lights in the skye).

I would guess a modern airplane to have FAR far better fuel economy (our engine is a 6 litre V8, yielding 100 HP. It was build in 1936 at B&W in Denmark).

(Oh. And in most places in the world -aviation fuel is extemp from taxes).

~~DukeP~~

[cjolley]

When I turned about 45 those marathon drives started to gain a real "been there, done that" feel to them.

Assuming the family is going though, how could flying be cheaper than driving?

Unless you're driving Doc's van that is.

[Gurm]

Wouldn't it take two days to drive also?

About a 20-hour drive. If you push and do it all in one shot...

But with gas prices the way they are, it's cheaper to fly.

[ND66]

Only if you’re a Sunday driver.

Did it twice already with my wife napping and me driving, and vice versa. I was doing the majority of the driving.

We did stop quite frequently too. Not for too long, accept for dinner and breakfast, those were the long stops, 1~1 ½ hours each.

Something around 1200 miles one way.

.

[cjolley]

That's right, 2 days to get there, and 2 back!!!! There goes my week of vacation......

Wouldn't it take two days to drive also?

[Evildead666]

Petrol is high here too.
We are just taxed more by our governments, and have been for a lot longer than the US.

Nearly all freight is Road based here too.
If too much was done by railways, the truckers would strike and block the railway stations.

They've just introduced Baobab fruit from Africa in the UK.
I'm sure that will obviously be taking the long route via a boat, and not trucks ?

Public transport in France is great, if you live anywhere near it.
And if its going your way.
It would be longer for me to take the train to work than drive.
I would have to pay to park the car at the train station, where there are no parking spaces after 7am anyway...
Then the obligatory train strikes/dissapearances (trains are just cancelled for no reason)

Doing the 30km drive to the outskirts of Paris, the Periphérique, would take 25-30mins on a sunday.
Weekdays, it varies from 2 hours upwards. Mucho upwards.
Most people are alone in their cars.

If oil drops in price again, our politicians will do what they have always done since after the second world war....pass the buck to the next generation.
They mentioned in the 50's and 60's that Oil was going to be tight, and run out someday.
This was years before I was born.
I don't see us NOT relying totally on oil today ????
Our politicians have been shafting us for years, and covering up the bad sh*t.
We need politicians who were voted by the people, all the people, and for them to do what we want, not us accepting what the few at the top think is best for the rest of us.

We need to wipe the slate clean, and start again.
It will never happen though, so we are all fecked.

edit : In France, since I am not a french citizen, I am not allowed to vote in the presidential elections.
Sort of cuts out a lot of votes....
I am only allowed to vote in the local elections if the mayor allows it...

Imagine in England, only the people with English passports being allowed to vote ?
How much fuss would that kick up ?

[ND66]

What makes you think that?
the Capitol Limited (train 30) + the Silver Meteor (train 97) gets you there in 2 days for $216

For a sleeper the price is $757 though


PS Capitol Limited is Chicago-Wash DC. Silver Meteor is Wash DC to Orlando and other parts of Florida. I used Orlando to calculate the price.

That's right, 2 days to get there, and 2 back!!!! There goes my week of vacation......


Not to mention I could fly for cheaper than the $216 and be there in 2 hours, not days.


Tha'ts why train is NOT an option.

.

[cjolley]

For example, if I want to go from Chicago to Florida, I only have two options: fly or drive. There is no train I could take there….. .

What makes you think that?
the Capitol Limited (train 30) + the Silver Meteor (train 97) gets you there in 2 days for $216

For a sleeper the price is $757 though


PS Capitol Limited is Chicago-Wash DC. Silver Meteor is Wash DC to Orlando and other parts of Florida. I used Orlando to calculate the price.

[ND66]

.....
Secondly, our public transportation in the USA...it..well...uh...unless you live in a REALLY BIG city, it doesn't exist. I'm talking New York, Chicago, D.C., LA, Dallas...and even then not all of those cities have anything that compares to the likes of even the average size cities in Europe. The US is car dependent and oil/gas driven. While in almost every settled place in Europe if you can't afford gas to commute you have cheap alternative transport options like the bus, or a safe bike path to the office, or the underground/subway, a train, or something. We don't.

And a lot of Americans commute 20-60 minutes ONE WAY to work each day, which never was a problem until the gas prices skyrocketed, so a very large portion of the working population does it......

Not only that.

Look at this picture:





Our transportation infrastructure is based on those big rigs.

We don’t have Railroads infrastructure like Europe or Japan does. Gas is used everywhere, starting from getting to work to getting the food and products on the store shelf.

For example, if I want to go from Chicago to Florida, I only have two options: fly or drive. There is no train I could take there….. .

.

[Jammrock]

Okay my European friends, allow me to explain why us USA types are complaining.

First off, your gasoline has been very expensive (compared to ours) for a very long time. In the mid 90's when I was in Denmark gasoline was 8 dkr per liter (roughly) which worked out to about $4 USD per gallon. At the same time gas in the US was around $1 per gallon. From people I talked to that seemed to be fairly average in many European nations. So even if gas prices peaked recently at $8-$9 a gallon you have only seen a rough double of gas prices in a decade. In the same amount of time we had a quadrupling of gas prices, or a five times increase for diesel, which holds a larger overall economical impact in the US than it did in Europe.

Secondly, our public transportation in the USA...it..well...uh...unless you live in a REALLY BIG city, it doesn't exist. I'm talking New York, Chicago, D.C., LA, Dallas...and even then not all of those cities have anything that compares to the likes of even the average size cities in Europe. The US is car dependent and oil/gas driven. While in almost every settled place in Europe if you can't afford gas to commute you have cheap alternative transport options like the bus, or a safe bike path to the office, or the underground/subway, a train, or something. We don't.

And a lot of Americans commute 20-60 minutes ONE WAY to work each day, which never was a problem until the gas prices skyrocketed, so a very large portion of the working population does it. Some of that is economical though, as you have to make a lot of money to live inside a big city, much more than if you lived outside the city and wanted to put your kids into decent schools. So if you can't afford to drive at quadruple the gas price from 5 years ago then you are in trouble.

I am one of the lucky ones that work from home, so my commute is a 10 second walk to the office. Even so the higher gas prices hurt since we still have kids to ferry around and there is no other way to get them there.

[cjolley]

That may have been the thought train in the past, but now I think that people finally "get" that oil is a national security issue and this will cause the transition we should have made after the first oil shocks, and most certainly after the Gulf War.

I think you are dreaming.
The traffic on my drive from Dallas back to OKC yesterday consisted of, on average, black SUVs going 80mph in the 102f heat.
Also, an average of about 1.5 passengers per 9 seat vehicle.

People may be complaining about high gas prices here. But I definitely don't think they "get it" yet.

If gas went back to $2/gal the Volt project would go the way of GM's last electric car so fast it would make your head swim.

[Nowhere]

Ahhh, yes, I forgot to bitch about prices here

So...average is around 4,80 PLN (95 octane gasoline; diesel is...sligthly more expensive than 95). Today that means 1,5€/$2,35 per liter. Which is close to what Fat Tone and VJ posted, however, when comparing for example...

GDP per capita (easiest data to find, will have to suffice...median income would be probably better):
US: ~$46 000
UK: ~$46 000
Belgium: ~$43 000
Poland: ~$11 000

Yeah...

PS. Doc, with rampant consumptionism around, are you sure people finally "got it"?...

[VJ]

Yep, I also am always stumped to see how low the US gas prices are...

In Belgium, an additional problem was the price of diesel: most people here drive diesel cars, but that price has risen much more than the fuel price; at one point they where almost equal! In itself, this isn't a big problem (diesel cars consume less), but there is an additional annual tax on diesel cars, causing there to be no benefit from driving a diesel.

Prices here have also relaxed somewhat, official maximum price is still around 1.55 €/l (=9.21 $/gallon), but you can find fuel for 1.45 €/l (still 8.61 euro/l). Premium is about 0.10 more expensive.



Jörg