Terror in France: coordinated attacks

[Umfriend]

Oh, I have no issue agreeing that western foreign policies have, at least in sufficient part, been mired with disingeniousness and that it has contributed to various issues. Not sure they'd been a lot less had the "west" only made "good" decisions. I believe, however, that many disputes would have come up without our "help". Surely there have been wars all over the world when the "west" was non-existent or non-influential.

[dZeus]

Well, that is not what the Russian said but yes, that is one of the problems with our asylum-process: refused seekers do not return / get deported. That, in itself, is hardly different from illegal aliens coming in without seeking asylum. And it is not easy to prevent that at all, look at Mexico-US. The Russians, of course have no such problem and that makes it somewhat hard for them to understand how difficult it is to keep people out when they do want to come in. No one wants to go to Russia.

Of course it is not about cheap labor for Germany. If that was what they wanted they could have gotten it cheaper and with less controversy.

Being a rich and safe area draws people. And you get them from the worst corners because it is quite a hurdle to leave ones' home.

If "we" want to solve this we can't do without radical measures (of which I think we are not willing and we probably should not be, to take).

if western foreign policies for the rest of the world (e.g. north-Africa and the Gulf) were less centred on geo-strategic politics gains, and more on stability, we'd probably not be in this situation in the first place. Not that I'm trying to downplay the more 'local' external factors, such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Israel...
Note that the human trafficking was already going on after removal of Khadaffi in Libia, with many immigrants being facilitated across the Mediterranean sea, as opposed to being stopped.

And now we see the same going on in norther Iraq, where for the past few years a bunch of countries have been grooming a local population with unrecognised claim of independence.

...I suppose as long as there's oil in the ground and policy makers care about who has how much power, that region really is doomed. It's the way it's sold to the populace that I find distasteful.

As about how to tackle this: some countries are willing to take more assertive steps, most notably some of the former Warsaw-pact countries, as well as Denmark. Many of the others wouldn't be able to do that though, unless more populist parties gain traction in elections.

[Umfriend]

Well, that is not what the Russian said but yes, that is one of the problems with our asylum-process: refused seekers do not return / get deported. That, in itself, is hardly different from illegal aliens coming in without seeking asylum. And it is not easy to prevent that at all, look at Mexico-US. The Russians, of course have no such problem and that makes it somewhat hard for them to understand how difficult it is to keep people out when they do want to come in. No one wants to go to Russia.

Of course it is not about cheap labor for Germany. If that was what they wanted they could have gotten it cheaper and with less controversy.

Being a rich and safe area draws people. And you get them from the worst corners because it is quite a hurdle to leave ones' home.

If "we" want to solve this we can't do without radical measures (of which I think we are not willing and we probably should not be, to take).

[dZeus]

Well, I would discuss views once we can agree, reasonably, on facts and rules of argument. And yes, the Russian writer misunderstands a lot as well about the asylum procedures and current issues as well. Granted, I did not take the 20+ minutes to listen to it all but, really, one thing he is saying we have abonded the basic rules of our asylum policy (i.e., we rant politcal asylum, not economical and the asylum seeker has to convince us he is the former) and that is really really simply false. There is no view, no argument on this, it is simply factually wrong. I'll not get into the "US is just another UK but far away" ROFL.

Late to the party, but here's my view:
While in theory you may be right, in practice the immigration apparatus in Europe, on the receiving end of a massive influx of immigrants at the moment, are woefully unprepared and incapable of dealing with the amount of applications.
Some of the countries near the outer borders have given up completely on registering immigrants, and are just sending them to the border on their way to the country of preference (usually Germany, Sweden or the UK). For that part, I'd tend to agree with the Russian guy that is making these claims.

As Europe chose not to go the 'Australian' way of locking up / separating immigrants whose claims are being treated, in practice this means that only a small portion of immigrants whose claims get refused really are deported from the country they reside in.
(e.g. see: here or here or here ).
The vast majority choses to live in illegality until it becomes politically unfeasible / too unpopular to repatriate them. And if they lucky they get an official status after living X years in illegality.

The only way to prevent this situation is to deny access at the border and to only let in enough people that your system can deal with, and to keep immigrants seeking special status separated until their claims are validated and the status is granted (or denied). Obviously, this cannot be a too lengthy process for humanitarian reasons; too many possibilities for appeal actually work against the humanitarian aspect of keeping the period short.
In the end, if Europe would be serious in not trying to attract too many economical migrants, they should make it much harder to get through the external borders. Merkel did the opposite, and I suspect that German demographics and influx of bodies that want to compete at low labour costs have something too do with her past statements.

As for the guy's claims that it's the US organising this... a big claim to make without supporting evidence. It's probably the end result of many contributing factors, such as Erdogan being able to use the flux of immigrants to pressure the EU to get concessions, Greece's government being fed up as well as not having the money to play EU's border guard, Germany's demographics and need for cheap labour in combination with a post-war culture of guilt, etc.

[Umfriend]

Well, I would discuss views once we can agree, reasonably, on facts and rules of argument. And yes, the Russian writer misunderstands a lot as well about the asylum procedures and current issues as well. Granted, I did not take the 20+ minutes to listen to it all but, really, one thing he is saying we have abonded the basic rules of our asylum policy (i.e., we rant politcal asylum, not economical and the asylum seeker has to convince us he is the former) and that is really really simply false. There is no view, no argument on this, it is simply factually wrong. I'll not get into the "US is just another UK but far away" ROFL.

[UtwigMU]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTDlY4o23XA

Here is another view you will disagree with. From Russia this time.

[Wulfman]

Oh puleeeze! How do you come up with guys like these? Boumediene never said that (7:34) for instance.

11:41 -> "This was a survey conducted..." not by whom, where, when, how, nothing. I think he means to say that 15% of his arse is has a postive attitude to IS. I am not wasting time on bs like this.

Fully agree. That guy is a nut-job, although I do respect his sense of comedic timing (e.g. when he talks about the graph depicting asylum seeker numbers: the rollercoaster (beat) perhaps to hell itself).

[Umfriend]

Oh puleeeze! How do you come up with guys like these? Boumediene never said that (7:34) for instance.

11:41 -> "This was a survey conducted..." not by whom, where, when, how, nothing. I think he means to say that 15% of his arse is has a postive attitude to IS. I am not wasting time on bs like this.

[paulw]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjvPj7WAX7A

Just watch the video. In France 20+% people have positive attitude towards ISIS. In France 2M support suicide bombing. If trends don't change we're one of last generations to have seen the cultural monuments and works of art of Europe. See what happened in Palmyra and Irak. This will happen to our castles, cathedrals and museums.

And imagine what they would do to Italy and Greece..

[UtwigMU]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjvPj7WAX7A

Just watch the video. In France 20+% people have positive attitude towards ISIS. In France 2M support suicide bombing. If trends don't change we're one of last generations to have seen the cultural monuments and works of art of Europe. See what happened in Palmyra and Irak. This will happen to our castles, cathedrals and museums.

[VJ]

Here goes Schengen.

Belgian newspaper: http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenl...Schengen.dhtml

Summary:
-
Belgium and Netherlands are talking about a mini-schengen within schengen. Austria and Germany are also in on the talks, but it is going difficult still. The idea would be to have an area within the current schengen where border checks on their outside border would be possible. Part of the plan is also shared refugee camps from which refugees will then be distributed over the involved countries.
-
It does not say how they will fit this with the current agreements.

[Umfriend]

Holland is coming to Moscow on 26th.

No, we're not!

[UtwigMU]

Russia and France will coordinate action as Putin and Hollande have agreed. Russia added more planes inlcuding strategic bombers (Tu 160 Tu 95 Tu 22) carrying cruise missiles to their Syria operation.

http://www.1tv.ru/news/polit/296419

Video from Russian command center coordinating operations. This isn't your grandfathers Soviet Union: widescreen monitors, big projectors, multiple teleconference live streams.

Holland is coming to Moscow on 26th.

[Dr Mordrid]

Anonymous has declared digital war on IS. Good on them.

Because the US and France have been stated to be #1 and #2 on the IS hit parade, and because of the large Detroit area Muslim population, which are largely Iraqi and many Syrians, we are taking extra precautions.

It's no secret that me, my wife and our adult children & relatives have concealed weapons permits and have taken tactical classes. Not unusual in these parts; there are almost 460,000 concealed weapon permit holders, and more who carry unconcealed which doesn't require a permit.

We are now carrying 2-3 backup magazines with high power tactical loads, and some of us backup weapons. We've also discussed and practiced improvised cover and other combat tactics.

I'm carrying a SIG P320 compact in .40 and a Ruger LC9 supercompact 9mm, both with hot tactical loads.

Better to have and not need than the reverse.

[Evildead666]

Anyhow, they seem to know the identities of most, if not all the attackers.
Piloted from/by a belgian based operative cell of IS.

Again, apparently some were known to intelligence services.

edit : First day at new work was not fun.
Even some of the national radio stations had stopped some of the fun call-in games they had, in respect.
My new boss was a few streets away when it happened.