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  • #16
    The only strong points the 8700 has over the competition are slightly longer zoom (280 vs. 200 on the Minolta and Canon, though this comes at the cost of not havning any real wide angle, 38 vs. 28 vor M and C), and better Macro, BUT (there is always a but ):

    You do not need that level of Macro and Zoom most of the time. 8mp are enough to allow you to crop A LOT (thus improving macro performance/zoom and decreasing resolution) and still having an image that's big enough to be printed A4, let alone smaller prints and computer screen sizes.

    That long zoom is only useful when shooting in bright outdoor light, otherwise you will get an image with lots of blur from camera shake (can not really be corrected in photoshop) - the only solutions to this are to use a tripod/monopod/bag of beans/solid surface and self timer or cable release or a camera with stabilization (ONLY the Dimage A1 and A2 in this segment. VERY VERY VERY VERY useful. Really the thing I miss the most on my camera. Instead of needing 1/250 sec. for a long zoom shot you can use 1/64 or even 1/32 (!!), allowing for even low light and indoors shooting without a tripod.)

    Also, you have to keep in mind distortion. When photographing flowers barrel distortion doesn't matter much, but when you are shooting macros of stuff with straight edges or right angles (almost anything made by man), stuff will look really strange with barrel distortion, bulging towards you. Photograph a cola can and it will look like it's about to explode

    Also important is subject distance. Higher is better: You must not get too close to insects lest they fly away, and when shooting stationary stuff you can get lighting problems when you get too close, the lens itself and the camera and attached hands shadowing whatever lights you may have set up. Flash is useless at really close distances anyway, it's much too strong (unless you use a dedicated macro flash, which is expensive, and I don't know if it is even available for the Nikon).

    Still, there's no talking away that the Nikon's macro performance is the best of the bunch. Take a look at the images I posted in this thread, they were shot with the Dimage 7i, a predecessor to the A2 which uses the same lens and has the same macro performance, with the difference that the A2 has 8mp and thus things are bigger.

    A few general points about the 8mp prosumers: Image quality is not the same across the range, but generally quite good enough. DPreview is very picky about that (too picky for me), take a look at the sample galleries and decide for yourself. The Olympus has the best image quality, but the smallest zoom. The Canon has a zoom ring, which is much more useful and intuitive than a zoom lever (the oly may have this too, I don't know. The Nikon doesn't). The Minolta and Sony have manual zoom rings (Teh best! Precision, control and speed cannot be matched by any electric zoom.) and focus rings (intuitive and useful!). The Minolta is the only one with image stabilization, which is SOOOOOO useful in practical use (and dpreview doesn't talk about it enough, IMHO, because it has a lot bigger impact on practical use than almost any other feature). AF on the Nikon is slow, on the Canon mediocre, fast on the minolta and a tiny bit faster on the sony, dunno about the oly. Lots of acessories are available for nikon, canon and minolta. The Nikon has a frustrating menu system which you will need to use often. The sony and minolta have dedicated buttons for everything you need to change often.

    Most important: Try them all out yourself, how they fit your hand etc. and keep in mind that handling is much more important than the last bit of image quality - the latter can be touched up if need be (though as I said, is generally good or better with all 8 mps), a pic you couldnt take because the cam's user interface held you back, or a pic with lots of shake - which is every indoor pic without flash or BRIGHT lighting, and flash makes people look ugly, and kills the lighting mood.

    God I've written too much. Should probably get back to work now

    AZ
    There's an Opera in my macbook.

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    • #17
      Thanks for all that Az. I've got the specs all down side by side now and I'm looking at the samples, together with prices from suppliers we can use. I'll be making a much more informed decision thanks to your help

      Now go do some work for a while
      FT.

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      • #18
        One more thing: Check for lens threads for filters, converters, etc. I know the Minolta has a thread for filters and converters, and the canon has a thread hood (you have to attach it to the lens, it is ONLY for filters, NOT large, heavy converters. You have to buy a special hood for that, and I don't know if you can fit anything there besides the canon converters). The nikon doesn't even have a filter thread - instead it has THREE different hoods which are all not included, so you can use filters, the tele and wideangle, and the fisheye converter respectively. I don't think the Sony has a lens thread.

        Add-Ons: There are tele and wide converters for the Canon (also macro, no wide angle), Nikon (also a fisheye with 183° of vision! very cool and interesting, but who really has a use for it? With wide angle converter it has the same wide angle as canon and minolta stock.), and Minolta (the Tele is also a Macro converter, 22.4 mm wide angle with converter!). All three of them also have a great selection of flashes, Canon and Minolta also Macro flashes.

        AZ
        There's an Opera in my macbook.

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        • #19
          Here's a nice 8mp comparison: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...oosing-8.shtml

          AZ
          There's an Opera in my macbook.

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          • #20
            An A2 should be with me this week. Thanks for all the info.
            FT.

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            • #21
              Got a camera yet FT? Care to share some thoughts? (whichever model you got now)

              AZ
              There's an Opera in my macbook.

              Comment


              • #22
                Hi

                Yeah, I got the Mintolta Dimage A2, and a 512MB Sandisk Ultra II CF card.

                It seems quite competant, but I'm still waiting to take a shot I'm prepared to post! I need to read the full manual as the printed version only explains half of the controls!


                Ok, here's why I'm not convinceed I'm doing a good job. This shot, which is a 3.88MB jpeg of my youngest, was taken indoors under incandescent light, using the flash and with a little optical zoom, using full Program modeand with Image Stabilisation on. Doesn't look that fanastic to me, but it's probably just me. Most shots seem grainy and dull to me.
                FT.

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                • #23
                  What ISO was the camera set to?

                  The grain looks like a classic underexposure or high speed film. (at least, to my untrained eye)

                  - Steve

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                  • #24
                    Was probably Auto ISO (it is ISO200, the camera uses up to 200 in Auto ISO) - better use 100 (it's only slightly noisier than 64, but sharper - no one knows why, probably just different internal noise reduction settings).

                    You're right, it doesn't look crisp, it has ugly chrominance noise, and it has a slightly video-like (ugly) look. It's not you. The A2 can be a great camera, but with stock settings, it isn't, for most purposes (stock settings are optimized for people who want to optimize their shots in photoshop, it's a prosumer camera, after all). But fear not, there are better settings for ordinary people like you and me, who don't want to edit every pic in PS to tune them to perfection.

                    * Image size: the largest
                    * compression: fine (or better, if you don't mind the space it takes up)
                    * colors: SRGB (embedded Adobe RGB is better for stuff you want to print or get printed or for stuff you want to photoshop, as it has a wider color gamut, but for monitor viewing, SRGB is better)
                    * sharpness: hard (+) (this camera sharpens very little by default, unlike Canon, who even sharpen RAW!)
                    * Noise reduction: on (I believe this only has effect for dark frame substraction for long exposures)
                    * Flash +- EV: +0.3 (Hold +-EV and turn rear scroll wheel)
                    * Col +2 (turn "digital effect" selector on right side of camera to color, hold button, turn wheel - at least it works like this on my Dimage 7i) - the Dimage has quite modest colors for most people, certainly not like a Fuji film or Sony digicam. tune to taste.
                    * Contrast +2 (likewise, tune to taste)
                    * +-EV -0.3 (the camera then just exposes a little darker - tune to taste, of course)

                    You can apparently save these by turning the function wheel (right, on top) to "MSET" and then press the "function button" (sorry, can't help here, my Dimage 7i doesn't have this feature).

                    The picture: Metering, Exposure, Colours all seem well (though I don't know the original of course), many people prefer more contrast and colours, and of course sharpness - we dealt with these with the above settings. Sharpness lies on the couch, not your son, though. Shooting with the flexible focus point gives you much more control over what actually gets focused on (just hold down the button in the middle of that cursor four-way button until the focus brackets change into a small white cross on the screen. this is where the camera focuses now, it will never look elsewhere for focus, as it does when you let it select its focus point. You can move the focus point with the cursor buttons, but you can also simply point at your son, half-press the shutter, frame the shot (with shutter half-pressed, and don't change distance to your son, of course), then just fully press the shutter.)

                    Please try, and post if it helps (with examples again, please ).

                    Oh, and don't worry: I haven't really made a single shot I consider worthy of showing anyone, and I've had my camera for two years now

                    AZ
                    There's an Opera in my macbook.

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                    • #25
                      thanks Az...I'm gonna have some fun playing with all that. The problem with shots of the kids of course, is that they don't wait for you to do too much messing!
                      FT.

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                      • #26
                        Yeah I know, and mine can't even move away from me - it's just that the AF on the D7i is about 0.25 times as fast (really) as yours (which is one of the fastest amongst digital cameras), and she can wiggle

                        AZ
                        There's an Opera in my macbook.

                        Comment

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