USB-PD frustration

[Umfriend]

Oh man, I feel like The Pit, Chief Lemon Buyer....

So I have this Dell WD19 USB-C docking station that should, through USB-PD 3.0, deliver 90W to non-Dell devices. I also just got the Lenovo IdeaPad 5 Pro (16APH8) that has two USB-C ports that support USB-PD 3.0 and a charger was delivered with it rated at 100W.

In short: the laptop refuses to be charged by the hub. At boot it will say "The connected AC adapter has a lower wattage than the recommended AC which was shipped with the system. to use AC power, please connect the AC adapter which was shipped with the system."

So much for USB-PD 3.0 being easy and universal. The thing is, the hub says it supplies 19.5V / 6.7A which is kinda weird as USB-PD requires 20V (or 15/9/5). But under USB-PD 3.0, there is NO WAY 90W can be delivered at anything less than 20V. So my *guess* is, even if the hub delivers 19.5V, it will signal to the chargee that it can deliver 20V (and I assume tolerances will easily deal with the 0.5V).

Also, AFAIK, the USB-PD on the lappy should accept 20V/4.5 or at least 20V/3A as well. I realise it is not optimal but there is a handshake mechanism to reconcile capabilities in USB-PD.

Of course, specs are spare and unclear and support is refusing to really engage. Bunch a ****ers.

Oh, and EVEN Lenovo does not sell a USB-C hub that will charge this laptop as well. Why have USB-PD 3.0 on the laptop if you're making it so that only a simple adapter will work with it??

Also, why do manufacturers expose so little to end users? I would love to learn what the hub and the lappy exchange during handshake. I mean, all I can say right now is that it does not work but I have no clue, or way to find out, what specifically the lappy is complaining about. They might as well have said "Syntax Error 22". But computer says nah.

[VJ]

Such a mess... A colleague had a Dell laptop and a Dell usb3 docking station. But he did not check it well and it turns out he could not power the laptop through the docking station.

Also stupid with my HP laptop: it has a dc-port, 2 USB-C ports and then some others. But it ships with a USB-C power supply. So from the get-go, you by default loose 1 of the two USB-C ports when charging. And I've seen manufacturers do that with laptops that have a single USB-C port! What then is the point of keeping the DC port in the laptop? I could understand it if they add a DC charger, and just offer a USB-C-PD port for supporting some USB-PD configuration.

[Umfriend]

And of course, support is terrible. There is literally no way for a consumer to (a) rely on USB-PD 3.0 compatibility claims or (b) figure out why is does not work.

[VJ]

Generally that is the case with USB now...
A display that connects via a USB-C port could use DisplayPort (DP-alternative mode on USB-C), it could be based on a built in USB-video adapter (requiring driver support) and it could even be based on a thunderbolt adapter (haven't seen those yet). Some Asus USB portable monitors for example support both first modes and use whatever is most appropriate.
Some phones support USB audio alternative mode, others do not.
The question about USB-PD is also the direction of the power: imagine a laptop an a monitor. Which one can power which one?

I used to tell my parents that if the connector fits, it will work. With the current USB-C mess, that is no longer the case. Some ports support some functions, some don't.

I'm still surprised by the low number of USB-C ports on desktop computers, I suspect it is a bit because they want to only offer ports that support thunderbolt (apart from the front panel ones) just to avoid such confusion.

[UtwigMU]

Ebay workstation dock and sell existing one.

[Umfriend]

Ebay workstation dock and sell existing one.

Which one?

[UtwigMU]

Thinkpad workstation dock - the top latest one.

[Umfriend]

I could but if even Lenovo does not say that will work..

[UtwigMU]

Then sell the consumer IdeaPad too and get a nice Thinkpad T or P with Ryzen.

More serious suggestion: Find a high powered workstation dock for which google research shows it works with your laptop.

[Umfriend]

The thing is, it is likely that I would get the 7840HS again which would require 100W to run off of it. So the same issue remains. I did put the question to Reddit but no replies yet.

Edit: The Thinkpads do not exist in a 16" 7840HS config. The IdeaPad really is a great device otherwise. Especially the fan noise behavior, hard to find anything that'll top that.

[VJ]

Coincidence?

https://tweakers.net/reviews/11340/20-usb-c-dockingstations-de-beste-basis-voor-je-thuiswerkplek.html

[Umfriend]

Well, I went ahead and orderd a Lenovo docking station that Lenovo support says is compatible with my laptop. Of course, no clue on what "compatibility" means in this respect. Also had to order a seperate power supply for the hub so as to allow it to churn out 100W. Frankly, I am not really optimistic. Will know more tomorrow.

Other than that, this laptop is really great, certainly for the price. It may not get the Time Spy score my i7-8750H/GTX1060 gets but everything it does is just so chill. The fan "noise" is almost beautiful but you have to draw quite a bit to actually hear it. It does League very well.

Edit: Just got word from lenovo Support. Even a Lenovo USB-C hub with PD churning out 45W will work with the laptop at full speed. I think this is ridiculous. USB-PD is supposed to be compatible. I mean, we don't check for compatibility for, say, a GPU, right. If it is PCIe 3.0 x8, you'll know whether it'll work or not? It is all the more concerning given how much the EU is pushing to make USB-C universal standard.

[VJ]

Edit: Just got word from lenovo Support. Even a Lenovo USB-C hub with PD churning out 45W will work with the laptop at full speed. I think this is ridiculous. USB-PD is supposed to be compatible. I mean, we don't check for compatibility for, say, a GPU, right. If it is PCIe 3.0 x8, you'll know whether it'll work or not? It is all the more concerning given how much the EU is pushing to make USB-C universal standard.

So the Dell dock you have should work (95W), but doesn't because it is no Lenovo?
Also rather confused that if 45W suffices for the laptop, why do they provide a 100W power supply? Do they aim to power other devices through the laptop?

I believe EU is just pushing to make USB-C a charging standard for phones, and even it does not have to support fast charging.

[Umfriend]

It provides 90W under USB-PD 3.0, at least that is what Dell claims. But yes, USB-PD compatibility apparently is of the sort "It will work with our brand, other, eh, duh, it might". I am especially shocked that implicitly the confirm the laptop can do hybrid power (use feed + battery if not enough and - battery if more available then needed). But of course, neither Dell nor Lenovo declare anything outright.

So the hub I'll get tomorrow also delivers 90W, I wonder if it will work. If it does, then I'll be pissed. If it does not then I'll try the separate 135W additional adapter for the hub, with which it delivers 100W. If only that works then I guess this part of the laptop is not really optimally designed but I can't be sure it should according to the USB-PD 3.0 criteria. It's a 800+ page document...

[Umfriend]

Well, contrary to what Lenovo support stated, the Lenovo ThinkPad Universal USB-C hub powered by the stock AC/DC adapter for it shows the exact same behavior as the Dell WD19. However, if I use the additional Hub AC/DC adapter (135W, so the hub may deliver 100W instead of 90W), then the laptop behaves as expected. So this all sets me back like EUR 500 (2 x Hub + additional power supply). I guess devices "requiring" 100W aren't that prevalent yet.