ony Abandons Failed MicroMV Format, Cuts Jobs

[paulw]

I'm not surprised. Feel sorry for those who bought in to it..

Link.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/sony-micromv-abandon-10_20_03.htm

[Brian Ellis]

Maybe Sony will think twice before going it alone yet once more. It would not surprise me if D8 follows, because they have abandoned its only advantage, its backwards compatibility to Hi8 legacy tapes.

[Elie]

D8 is now history as well, I think Sony should jut stick to miniDV for the low end market period.

Cheers,
Elie

[Ray Austin]

How about the new DVD-r cam by them?

I think it will be an obsolete product as well, even tho they claim you can take the DVD and play it in a [most] DVD player.

Problem: it is a proprietary disk that is smaller than a normal DVD and get this.... can only record 30min.

Sony should stop smokin crack... that's what I say.


However the TRV950 looks sweet! drool~ drool

[Chrono_Wanderer]

yea... I think digital storage won't really cut the meat for Video. Its just too damn big. Analog is the way to go I think.

[arciervo]

Originally posted by Ray Austin
How about the new DVD-r cam by them?

I think it will be an obsolete product as well, even tho they claim you can take the DVD and play it in a [most] DVD player.

Problem: it is a proprietary disk that is smaller than a normal DVD and get this.... can only record 30min.

I agree. For example, I wouldn't exactly call this a glowing review of the product:

http://www.dvspot.com/reviews/sony/dvd300-review/index.shtml

For highest quality, you can only record 20 minutes at a time. Add another 8.5 minutes to finalize a DVD-R disc (8 bucks a pop) and the standard battery is almost exhausted.

Tony

[Hulk]

I think that the idea of the MV format has merit but the implimentation was flawed. In order to reduce the size of the camcorder to what I believe is a ridiculous size, they devised a new tape format that used MPEG-2 compression. Obviously DV format compression wouldn't have yielded enough recording time on such a small tape.

The problem is that besides the really small camera, there is no additional benefits to the MV format.

I think Sony should take the R&D they spent on the MV format and use Compact Flash memory as a storage medium instead of MV tape. A 2GB card coupled with high quality real-time MPEG-2 compression could yield an hour of video. If only I frames were used the video would be quite editable as well.

Eventually, as memory density increases, we may see really huge memory cards and all camera's may use them for storage.

Another alternative would be small form factor laptop hard drives as an alternative to tape or non-volatile memory storage. These drives are relatively inexpensive, quite shock-proof, and offer the additional advantage of faster than tape upload to the editing computer. Also, drives could be swapable so that if one was filled you could pop in another.

Mark

[Elie]

Hulk you nailed it!!!!

Compact Flash would be great, however you will have two issues..

1-The write speeds are a bit slow today, I believe they have a new format that is a bit faster, but you will require a flash card that can write at least 3.5MBps and then you need to read at that speed as well.

2-The cost for such card would be too expensive to manufacture let alone buy.
Today you can buy a mini DV tape for less than $10.00, you buy a box and go crazy!

Personally my vote goes for built in mini Hard drives.

Cheers,
Elie

[Chrono_Wanderer]

dunno if you guys read it at THG (yea i know its toms, but...)

http://www6.tomshardware.com/storage/20031017/index.html

"fast" removeable magnetic storage anyone?

[Brian Ellis]

Issues:

MO has no more write performance than a floppy disk and is limited to 640 Mb for a massive, heavy unit.

Compact Flash is very expensive and would require enormous sizes if I-frame only were required for editing (the 2 Gb/hour format would not be editable)

HDDs look attractive but currently are not robust enough for mobile use in cameras (a fast pan and you'll plant the heads into the disk), may be too noisy. Try knocking or moving rapidly a laptop while it is reading or writing and you will see what I mean, expensively. Also the power consumption is too great and noise may also be an issue.

Holographic optical recording is a pipe dream at this stage.

I guess tape is here, with all its disadvantages, for a wee while yet. After all, tape has been used for video recording since about 1961, when Ampex released its enormous 2" tape machines. If it is still used after 40 years, there must be a damn good reason.

[Hulk]

Brian,

2GB/hour may be unrealistic for I frame only, perhaps more like 30 or 40 minutes, still not a bad amount of recording time. And unlike tape, the card could be used over and over again. Also, one thing is certain, memory prices do always come down. Instead of betting on a technology that is stagnant (tape), Sony could have invested in one that will continue to improve, non-volatile memory cards. As you mentioned, the write speed could be a problem, but also remember we're not talking about 3.5MB/s DV here, more like 1MB/s MPEG-2 I frame only. Again, I think this is within the realm of possibility.

The problem you mention with heads crashing during fast pans and such using a laptop drive could possibly be overcome with a large memory buffer, maybe 512MB or so, giving a minute or two of time before writing to the drive is necessary. Writing could be performed only when the camera didn't detect motion. Hard drives are getting pretty smart these days, I'm sure you've read about the new IBM mobile drives that will have motion sensors and will lock the heads when too many g's is encountered.

I have a feeling there is a strong, ah, let's say synergy between camera manufacturers and tape manufacturers that is putting off these developments. I also think that is the reason we're seeing recordable disc type cameras popping up, these still require consumable media. The tape manufacturers want to keep their claws into us!

Mark

[KRSESQ]

I have a feeling there is a strong, ah, let's say synergy between camera manufacturers and tape manufacturers that is putting off these developments.

Don't forget the consumer. People like tape because its an established, proven-reliable technology which yields the image quality and convenience they seek.

As far as the failure of the microMV format, this is the first time I've even heard of it, so promotion (or lack of) may have been an issue. But a bit of consumer backlash might have been involved, too. Technology changes so fast these days the average person feels left in the dust. When they have several hundred or several thousand dollars invested it their equipment, they want to protect that investment as long as they can. When they do upgrade, they want something that's at least similar to what they're familiar with in form and function, and if its backwards-compatible with what they had before, then there's no contest.

Frankly I think there's a serious downside to making cameras ever smaller (as in microMV). Its called the Law of Deminishing Returns. Make it too small and someone with hammy hands like mine won't be able to handle it, or someone like my brother in law will immediately lose it. If you automate it too much it will be too complicated for many people to program (how many cell phones like that are in use--99% of the users using 1% of the phone's functions because its too time consuming or confusing to learn them all?).

BTW did I tell you about the Canon A1 Hi8 camcorder I just bought?

Kevin

[arciervo]

Originally posted by Elie

Compact Flash would be great, however you will have two issues..

1-The write speeds are a bit slow today, I believe they have a new format that is a bit faster, but you will require a flash card that can write at least 3.5MBps and then you need to read at that speed as well.

2-The cost for such card would be too expensive to manufacture let alone buy.
Today you can buy a mini DV tape for less than $10.00, you buy a box and go crazy!

Personally my vote goes for built in mini Hard drives.

With video quality up to 704x480 MPEG-2 (6Mbps CBR), the Panasonic SV-AV100 looks interesting:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1361678,00.asp

and

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11251&catalogId=11005&itemId=65016&catGroupId=12873&modelNo=SV-AV100&surfModel=SV-AV100

but the recording time is still too small and the media too darned expensive (10 minutes at highest resolution on a $350 512MB SD card ).

With the possible exception of a mini Blu-Ray disc, I don't see any good alternatives to tape anytime soon.

Tony

[Hulk]

$349 for 512MB of Flash memory is outrageous. I'm sure Panasonic recommends thier memory for speed concerns. I bet that any good quality Flash memory will work.

Very good quality 512MB Flash can be had for $130 to $150. Less than half of Panasonic's price. In fact, a 1GB Sansdisk CF card currently costs $211 on Newegg.com

Two of those would give a reasonable 40 minutes of recording time at the highest quality recording. Plus you could use them in your digital camera, as computer backup, for transferring files, etc...

Prices will continue to drop on CF memory.

Mark

[arciervo]

Originally posted by Hulk
$349 for 512MB of Flash memory is outrageous. I'm sure Panasonic recommends thier memory for speed concerns. I bet that any good quality Flash memory will work.

Very good quality 512MB Flash can be had for $130 to $150. Less than half of Panasonic's price. In fact, a 1GB Sansdisk CF card currently costs $211 on Newegg.com

Two of those would give a reasonable 40 minutes of recording time at the highest quality recording. Plus you could use them in your digital camera, as computer backup, for transferring files, etc...

Prices will continue to drop on CF memory.

I think prices will still have to drop a long way.

Using your example of 40 minutes recording time at highest quality, here's what various media types would cost (based on www.bestbuy.com's prices for Sony brand media, which is probably not the cheapest):

Sony MiniDV (1 tape = 60 min): $6
Sony MicroMV (1 tape = 60 min): $12.67
Sony mini DVD-R (2 discs = 40 min): $15.33
Sandisk 1GB CF (2 cards = 40 min): $422

Tony