Audio cable break-in?

[Wombat]

Yeah, this guy said that too. He was also telling me that a copy of a CD would not sound the same as the original, no matter what.

[Greebe]

Thirdly, insulators are solid, not liquid. Thus, they cannot be rearranged, or "formed", as the audioquest person would have us beleive.

You're incorrect rugger.

Insulators can be a gas, liquid or a solid.

[thop]

reminds me of the guys who put CDs in their refrigerator.

[az]

Sure Greebe, but your typical audio cables will have solid insulators

BTW, there are also "high End" digital coax cables made of gold on the market. For several hundred Euros, last time I checked. I would have believed that any company that tried such a trick would instantly be marked as liars, and all their other cables not considered high end anymore because of the tricks they obviously try to pull, but NO, people actually buy that stuff (and "Hi-Fi" mags cover, review and recommend it!).

AZ

[Dogbert]

Originally posted by thop
reminds me of the guys who put CDs in their refrigerator.

Excuse my total ignorance - but WHY ???

[rugger]

Originally posted by thop
reminds me of the guys who put CDs in their refrigerator.

WTF???

That is likely to do much more damage to a CD than just leaving them in their jewel cases. (think of mould and fungus, that love the cool, damp conditions in a refrigerator)

As for insulators not being solid, while it is true that insulators can in all three normal states of matter (gas, solid, liquid), audio cable insulaters are make of solids.

Hmmm, I could make liquid insulated audio cables, and make a fortune selling them to dumb audio enthusiasts.

[az]

How about liquid cooled audio cables?

Or better yet, (near) superconducting liquid nitrogen cooled cables. You could even argue that the laws of physics mean they MUST sound better, and you'd even be right. Of course, nobody would hear the difference, but at tens of thousands of dollars per meter, who would argue?

AZ

[Muad'Dib]

Originally posted by mutz
People love to argue and nit-pick over things they can neither hear or see. If you can hear 30-16,000Hz, you are above average.

You're incorrect. Average hearing ranges from 20 to 20K, argueably 22K with 2K-4K (most important speech frequencies necessary for understanding btw) being audible at the softest dB(IL) with the remainder of the freq.'s being on a non-linear dB(IL) scale.

As to cables, imho there is a difference in sound quality between say, Best Buy cheap ass cables and some AQ cables although I do not believe there is any audible difference beyond a certain point - just bragging rights as was mentioned somewhere previously.

As to burn in, I think I remember at some point reading that it is actually the brain that is actually taking time to start to notice the "finer details brought about by the cables." I'm not sure where I read this - correct me if I'm wrong.

[rugger]

Originally posted by Muad'Dib

As to cables, imho there is a difference in sound quality between say, Best Buy cheap ass cables and some AQ cables although I do not believe there is any audible difference beyond a certain point - just bragging rights as was mentioned somewhere previously.

I don't have direct experence with this, but my gut feeling tells me (thats always a bad thing ) that the best buy cheap cables are no different in performance from the "good" cables unless:

1) The best buy cables are less conductive than the "good cables". If this is the case, simply buy a slightly higher gague wire. (the higher the gague of the wire, the less resistsance, hence more conductive, it is)
2) The best buy cables do not have equivelant sheilding to the "good cables". This may be true for component (I imagine the component cables have minimal shelding by wrapping the ground wire around the signal wire) and coaxial cable, but not for speaker wire. In this case, it may be prudant to buy something non-bargin basement.

/ramble mode on

Also to think about, I'm in the side of the good cables for this one, while the best buy cables may be as good as the "good" cables, the "good" cables physically look a damned sight better. It may be feaisable to buy and use the more expensive cables simply because they are more astheticly pleasing.

/ramble mode off

[Jammrock]

Originally posted by rugger


I don't have direct experence with this, but my gut feeling tells me (thats always a bad thing ) that the best buy cheap cables are no different in performance from the "good" cables unless:

1) The best buy cables are less conductive than the "good cables". If this is the case, simply buy a slightly higher gague wire. (the higher the gague of the wire, the less resistsance, hence more conductive, it is)
2) The best buy cables do not have equivelant sheilding to the "good cables". This may be true for component (I imagine the component cables have minimal shelding by wrapping the ground wire around the signal wire) and coaxial cable, but not for speaker wire. In this case, it may be prudant to buy something non-bargin basement.

/ramble mode on

Also to think about, I'm in the side of the good cables for this one, while the best buy cables may be as good as the "good" cables, the "good" cables physically look a damned sight better. It may be feaisable to buy and use the more expensive cables simply because they are more astheticly pleasing.

/ramble mode off

I'm going to call you on this one. I have personal experience, as does Muad'Dib, and have done major comparisons on several cables. With my old system (ancient Denon reciever with Inifiniti speakers) I compared your basic Radio Shack 'lamp wire' speaker cable to the 'higher-end' Monster cables and noticed a definate difference in audio quality, though nothing major.

In my new system (Denon AVR-3802 -> Rotel RB-1080 amp -> B&W CDM 9NT speakers) I compared various cables as well. With the Monster cables the system sounded bland and basically like my old system. Then I slapped in Audio Quest Type-2 cable (bottom of the barrel AQ) and the system sounded MUCH better! Lastly I picked up a pair of LAT International SS-1000 D Bi-wire (their top-of-the-line cable) and my system sounded(s) INCREDIBLE.

I too agree with Muad'dib that there is a point where a cable cannot make a noticable difference anymore to a system.

So in sum: If you have a 'Best Buy system', use 'Best Buy cables'. If you have an audio specialist system, use audio specialist cables. As cable will make a difference on a sufficiently good system.

As to burn in, I think I remember at some point reading that it is actually the brain that is actually taking time to start to notice the "finer details brought about by the cables." I'm not sure where I read this - correct me if I'm wrong.

That was actually a quote from local guru and audio genius, Greebe. Where he got it from, if he got it elsewhere, I do not know the source.

Jammrock

[Wombat]

You're incorrect. Average hearing ranges from 20 to 20K, argueably 22K with 2K-4K (most important speech frequencies necessary for understanding btw) being audible at the softest dB(IL) with the remainder of the freq.'s being on a non-linear dB(IL) scale.

No, he was right. The maxium range of human hearing is up to 20 or 22kHz. The majority of the population tapers off aroung 16-18kHz.

[thop]

i can hear a sinus tone up to ~21Khz. when i was in school, i might add
if 22Khz is the maximum then i wonder what use does 48Khz sound have when 44Khz is enough. because from my understanding, and by some law that escapes me right now, you need roughly double the Khz rate for the real Khz rate you want to record.
i hope somebody understands what i mean

[Dogbert]

Originally posted by Jammrock
In my new system (Denon AVR-3802 -> Rotel RB-1080 amp -> B&W CDM 9NT speakers) I compared various cables as well. With the Monster cables the system sounded bland and basically like my old system. Then I slapped in Audio Quest Type-2 cable (bottom of the barrel AQ) and the system sounded MUCH better! Lastly I picked up a pair of LAT International SS-1000 D Bi-wire (their top-of-the-line cable) and my system sounded(s) INCREDIBLE.

I too agree with Muad'dib that there is a point where a cable cannot make a noticable difference anymore to a system.

So in sum: If you have a 'Best Buy system', use 'Best Buy cables'. If you have an audio specialist system, use audio specialist cables. As cable will make a difference on a sufficiently good system.

Bah !

The Naked Truth about Speaker-Cables
And those are people who spend $$$ on extreme high end turntable equipment cause CDs aren't good enough.

Now if you want ultra high-end cables for your system, check their DIY page:DIY: HiFi cables

[rugger]

Sorry

I'm going to call you on this one. I have personal experience, as does Muad'Dib, and have done major comparisons on several cables. With my old system (ancient Denon reciever with Inifiniti speakers) I compared your basic Radio Shack 'lamp wire' speaker cable to the 'higher-end' Monster cables and noticed a definate difference in audio quality, though nothing major.

In my new system (Denon AVR-3802 -> Rotel RB-1080 amp -> B&W CDM 9NT speakers) I compared various cables as well. With the Monster cables the system sounded bland and basically like my old system. Then I slapped in Audio Quest Type-2 cable (bottom of the barrel AQ) and the system sounded MUCH better! Lastly I picked up a pair of LAT International SS-1000 D Bi-wire (their top-of-the-line cable) and my system sounded(s) INCREDIBLE.

I too agree with Muad'dib that there is a point where a cable cannot make a noticable difference anymore to a system.

So in sum: If you have a 'Best Buy system', use 'Best Buy cables'. If you have an audio specialist system, use audio specialist cables. As cable will make a difference on a sufficiently good system.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way,

Unless you can give references to unbiased double blind tests, or objectively measurable differences that confirm your results, I will not listen.

There is simply too much bullshit (sorry, but it is true) in the high- end audio industry.

And far too many people who spend more money than they need to, only to defend the products so they don't feel they have wasted money.

However, I am open to changing my mind on this issue. I have been wrong many times before, and if nothing else, I get to learn something new

Edit: I messed up the quote tags (I can't spell quote properly apparently)

[Greebe]

Unless you can give references to unbiased double blind tests, or objectively measurable differences that confirm your results, I will not listen.

Nor will you hear

There is simply too much bullshit (sorry, but it is true) in the high- end audio industry.

Couldn't agree more

And far too many people who spend more money than they need to, only to defend the products so they don't feel they have wasted money.

Not so in many cases. I too am one to point out that there is all too much hype to the psychobabble which spews forth from the audio industry, but then I've also heard the differences they mention. For you to hear ie buy you must be convinced of what you hear is attributed to it's purchase. Some people will never take the time to truely listen to what is played and will never be convinced that spending another $100, $1000 or $10000 is worth the cost. Fine we're all individuals and our God given right, but to denounce another claiming it's BS is flat wrong. Each of us has a perverbial line drawn in the sand where enough is enough... normally that's our wallet. Spend a few thousand hours LISTENING with great intent to the details and you'll start to understand where part of all this comes from