Latest NV20 specs

[Pace]

If he's saying what I think he's saying, then he thinks that because NVIDIA only make chips then their cards will be cheaper.

Hands up if you think he's messed up

Paul.

[DosFreak]

Sorry Freak. I don't put any weight in your "information", especially after reading your G800 rumors.


Sorry for you then. It's sad to see people ignore other people's post's based on light-hearted posts by said person. I for one do not nor will I ever judge other posts made by you in other threads. I only hope that you can do the same.

I find it interesting the ability of Murcers to constantly dismiss good information because said information was stated by "nvidiots". How sad.

[spoogenet]

I have no clue whether nvidia plans on releasing the board at, below, or over any other card's price. So I won't touch that debate.

As Joel said, though, supply vs. demand is critical here. While nvidia can sell the chips for whatever price they want to the board companies, that does not necessarily affect the sale price of the board. The sale price of the board is dependent upon the supply to vendors and the demand vendors experience. If the computer store experiences high demand, they may sell them at a higher price, easily.

If nvidia really wants to sell them cheap (again, I have no clue if they do), then they will need to produce mass quantities of them prior to selling the product. Or at least be able to deliver mass quanitities each week. Without the strong supply, the demand will drive prices up.

Unless, of course, the demand is for some other chip?

b

[Himself]

For the end user, buying a card make by the folks who make the chip used is the best deal they can get, they get drivers that work properly (generally) and the company gets all the headaches from tech support and they actually have incentive to deal with them.

It's hard to say which way is better for a video chip maker. You might get higher margins on card products, but you also get higher bills coming in, the accountants can sort that out. They have to provide tech support and spend lots of money on marketing themselves. They also have to deal with legacy cards, providing tech support and marketing for ongoing sales of those.

Also, I don't know if Matrox has their own fab or not, but outsourcing the chips themselves is probably a very good idea. Unless they are in the fab business they won't be able to compete with the process of the moment. Seems to me that Matrox probably has the right plan for the business market, support and quality control goes a long way there. But it they want to switch to a trendy market with products out every 6 months they should consider outsourcing chips like NVIDIA and reduce the cost and risk. They could do both, they seem to have tried with the G400 and those tailored gigabyte(?) versions, doubt they will though.

NVIDIA is laughing it's way to the bank, all they have to do is come up with some new variations on their designs, get a working prototype, update the drivers with a few constants for clock speed and they are done. They get a thousand and one variations and combinations onto the market without lifting a finger. All the marketing is free and they don't have to deal with card yields, legacy cards, inventories or tech support. All they have to do is to cash the cheques from chip sales. As a hobby they can tweak the drivers for better performance and take ten minutes a month to drive the internet NVIDIA hype machine. As a business model, it's hard to fault it, people as a rule don't care about quality or real support, they have been trained not to expect that from using the PC. NVIDIA basically took the cynical route and is feeding off human nature.

[Greebe]

DosFreak, you also neglict to recognise that nVidia is on a of mission global domination of the graphics world... and after illegal acquision of technology / personel / what they have done to 3dfx and Matrox, your constant push of nV's products, claiming this or that is *gagging*. You certainly have a perverted (morbid) sense of humour pushing that shit on us.

If your "information" was so accurate then why is it riddled through with holes? Ya know some of us out here know a whole hell of alot more on this subject and even more than your best wet dream could ever conjure up. You certianly don't give a damn about the industry, Matrox, what the MURC is about and the evil your pushing on the rest of us or whom you are willing to sleep with to get that FPS you lust for, regardless of cost, is simply disgusting. Go spread your disease elsewhere.

[isochar]

Lots of interesting stuff to reply to

It is undisputable that Nvidia has any supply troubles. Assuming everything stays the same, Nvidia GPUs will always saturate markets. (Due to the huge manufacturer channel that they can utilize)

Nvidia hardware/software is considered high-quality by most consumers. People are willing to pay that high premium on an
Nvidia GPU (i.e.. GF2 Ultra) because of the Nvidia's reputation for speed/quality.

Joel:

I shouldn't have used outsourcing to describe Nvidia's business model. Nvidia is a intellectual corporation. Nothing more. They don't even manufacture the chips (Done by TSMC). This business model lets them focus on what they do best, design the hardware and the software to run the hardware.

Matrox does everything in-house except for manufacturing the chips. (Done by NEC, I believe) Look at Matrox's prices for their cards, they are priced at low-end GF2 prices right now... hmm... something wrong with that...

Nvidia prices are EXCELLENT! How much did a G400max sell for when it came out 1 1/2 years ago? 250? TNT2 Ultras sold for 200. I expect Matrox's next high-end video card to easily hit 350. They've put 1 1/2 years of R&D, they'll want to get that money back, and then some...

spooge:

Speculation is always fun

"While Nvidia can sell the chips for whatever price they want to the board companies, that does not necessarily affect the sale price of the board."

Oh yes they can. First, they can sell their chipsets for $50 instead of $100. (Not
definite numbers) They are also in a position where they can FORCE manufacturers to not markup prices over a certain point. If
Nvidia cuts off a manufacturer, who else would supply the chipset with 3dfx out? I don't think this is likely though, since the competition between the manufacturers keeps the costs and profits down. If Creative is willing to only make $10 on its GF2, then maybe Leadtek is willing to make $8, etc...

Himself:

You're right on the dime in the first and third paragraphs!

ATI/Matrox have already realized that they are not competing only against Nvidia.

Nvidia is mostly R&D. (And that R&D has opened a can of whoop ass) Legal and developer relations make up the rest.

Creatives/Hercules/Leadtek/Inno3d/Visiontek/Gigabyte/Asus/Elsa/Aopen (did I miss one? ) take care of everything else. They do compete against each other, but I believe each of these companies know that there will always be other Nvidia manufacturers. They also focus their efforts at making ATI/Matrox go out of business.

Does David VS Goliath come to mind? I really hope David wins, but highly unlikely.

Only way Nvidia will go down is if their R&D falters. (Highly doubtful in the near future with the huge influx of monetary and intellectual resources) Another
scenario is if they get sued to death (Rambus anyone?)

Greebe:
Nvidia's attempt at global market domination of the graphics world will not stop unless competition/government's do.

If Nvidia's methods have gotten them this far, then they are obviously doing something right. (not morally right) If ATI/Matrox want to stay in business, they will have to adopt those same methods.

I don't know what DosFreak's intentions were, but I do know that I am here to talk with intelligent individuals about the current state of the graphics industry. (unlike madonion.com, voodooextreme.com, etc)

[This message has been edited by isochar (edited 17 January 2001).]

[Greebe]

But David did win! (hint)

[DuRaNgO]

and David is better looking
lol

[Greebe]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">If ATI/Matrox want to stay in business, they will have to adopt those same methods.</font>

What a pathetic comment!

Matrox is the bigger man and will smash them like the infectious bugs they are by developing superior technology on their own or by other legal means (licensing agreements etc).

You do not have to stoop down to the competitions level to insure market share and anyone that thinks so is full of it.

*geesh*

[This message has been edited by Greebe (edited 17 January 2001).]

[Himself]

Er, I think he meant the business model.

[DuRaNgO]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">not morally right</font>

this line clearly shows what he meant

[superfly]

This is quite amusing.... .

All this debate about video cards kinda makes you wonder where some people's priorities lie.

Like it or not,Nvidia is on a roll to very shortly become the leading graphics chip provider period.

Save for the people who actually work in their respective companies,does it really a difference in your personal life who will supply your next card.

I coudn't care less who makes(or will make)my next video card....

All i want is a card that performs and is reliable with good driver support.

Currently Nvidia is doing all 3 very well,and as long as they can keep it up,i'll keep buying.

As soon as they mess up,i'll go look else where,simple as that.

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Hypothetically, if those are/close to the official nv20 specs, the card should run about what the GTS came out at ($350).</font>

That is still too expensive for my blood considering nVidia's general lack of quality.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">However, I think nvidia is going to want to keep the momentum it has, and will cut the initial prices of the NV20 to sub-300. (By controlling its prodcution affiliates)</font>

nVidia produces the chip only and that is the only thing they have control over. To make the NV20 cheaper they will have to try and flood the board manufacturers with the chips so that supply is greater than demand. That is the only way the price will come down.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">The total cost of manufacturing an nvidia-based card is cheaper than an equivalent card from ATI or Matrox. (Since nvidia outsources all production)</font>

nVidia doesn't out source anything. They sell the chips to the card manufacturers and as long as they sell them and make the profit they want, they could care less what the card manufacturers sells the cards for.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">So, by releasing the NV20 at a price below what consumers expect, they will generate huge demand. ATI/Matrox will have to sit idly by, or sell their cards at less of a profit.</font>

All that will do is either drive the price up or at the very least keep it where it is. Have you not heard about the Supply vs Demand factor. Plus the fact that Matrox does manufacture it's own boards makes me believe that they can have a higher profit margin thus better being able to cut the prices on their cards. With nVidia cards you have two enities seeking profits, nVidia and the board manufacture. That IMO is why they are priced the way they are now. Too expensive for what you get.

Joel

[isochar]

"Currently Nvidia is doing all 3 very well,and as long as they can keep it up,i'll keep buying.
As soon as they mess up,i'll go look else where,simple as that."

Or if someone releases a better product



[This message has been edited by isochar (edited 18 January 2001).]

[superfly]

That's also quite possible as well...

But then again,it would have to have way more features and at least(minimum) be twice as fast in real terms,as what i'm currently using.

I'm using a Geforce 2 64 meg btw...

So i'm not really expecting anything that fast at least for another 9 to 12 months.

So i'm thinking more in the lines of a radion 2 or nvidia's nv25/nv30,so the cards i'm looking for are still on the drawing board.

Of course matrox is welcomed to surprise me as well.