California Does *NOT* Execute Juveniles. Period.

[Pace]

Yes, but you're putting those facts in to a gun debate - why?

And it's quite clear, that without guns there wouldn't be any shootings at all...

[Rags]

Of course there wouldn't be shootings. But that isn't even close to being logical in thinking, or even towards a debate.

I can see it now "Well, without water, there would be no drowning" "Well, without cars, there would be no drunk driving" "Well without alcohol there would be no drunks" "Well without the media there would be no worried public" "Well without cigarettes, there would be no lung cancer" "Well without freedom of speach, there would be no one telling me things that hurt my feelings or would offend anyone"

Get real, the solution to the problem isn't banning guns. There is something wrong with these children, and we should be trying to focus on how to prevent these children from even thinking of doing such a thing.

Rags

[Pace]

Yea, but what reasons are there to allow average people to have guns? Although all areas of this have to be addressed, leaving out guns isn't necessarily a good idea - as long as there are 'wackos', and there are guns, there will be shootings.

But why mention the drowning facts? Does the lessen the validity of banning guns at all?

P.

[Topha]

pace is right, the drowning fact is not a good one to be named here. drowning happens by accident (mostly). if you list that you would also have to list all the people that die of age, diseases, get hit by trees and such.
guns just tempt people to kill. there is no easier way to kill a person. it is so unpersonal, you just point and click. if you stab someone, you have to get close and actually stick something into the guy you want to kill, with guns you just shoot.

[paulcs]

While I wouldn't mind seeing a ban on handguns, it really isn't practical. There are literally millions of handguns in circulation in the US. There's just no getting rid of them. It's not going to happen.

Sweeping prohibitions don't seem to work in the US. I can't help but get the feeling that people who never considered owning a handgun would want one if they were banned.

I strongly believe handguns should be heavily regulated: licensing, competency testing, carrying restrictions, etc.

Rags' comment about the news media's role in this sort of crime, I think, is very legitimate. The youth violence crime rate is way down in the US and this type of incident inevitably is followed by a media frenzy. There is an undeniable element of "copycatism" going on here.

A San Francisco Chronicle report's niece or nephew was shot in Santee. He paints a picture of reporters tailing reluctant student and parents and screaming stuff like, "hey! We're not the enemy here." Maybe they are.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[This message has been edited by paulcs (edited 11 March 2001).]

[KvHagedorn]

These are the problems of a twisted culture. People need to feel like they are part of the human race. In a lot of ways, we exclude kids from this. Young adults are too afraid/selfish/spooked to befriend teenagers in America these days, and vice versa. This is exactly what kids need to grow up normal. Someone slightly older who isn't a parent can really help shape one's sense of what one wants to be, how to act as a grownup, etc. It is somewhat taboo to have a friend under the age of 18, though. Why? Because, since anyone under 18 is not yet "legally" an adult (i.e., somewhat less than human intellectually or whatever the messed-up attitude is) it is thought impossible that anyone could want to befriend them unless the purpose of that friendship is twisted in some way. Our culture is utterly sex-obsessed, but at the same time, there is some vein of prudery which is equally twisted in the opposite direction. Frankly, I feel this has been promulgated mainly by jealous older women when they have seen the eyes of men looking at 16 year old girls. Such a natural appreciation of female beauty has been twisted into perversion by various forces in this society. It is much more taboo than murder. Example: we were playing a James Bond film at the Home and Garden show this year. There were a couple of 10 year olds (boy and girl) sitting there watching this. One of the guys working the show with me got all worked up when the slihouettes of naked women dancing appeared on the screen.. "Oh no, flip forward!" so he skipped to another scene where people were being blown away with machine guns. This seemed totally acceptable to him. How stupid that we in America are like this. Love is twisted into something evil and murder is tacitly acceptible. It's totally F#$%ed up IMHO.

*Kids are selfish. We have taught them to be.
*Kids take guns to school and murder. It is easier to think that this seems to be the thing to do, since they see it happen in movies all the time.
*Having no one else to turn to, since older friends are denied them, kids try to learn about life from the seediest in their age group, who consequently have no morals to go with their experience.
*Kids have no children of their own when they grow up. "I don't want them to wind up as twisted as me."

Talk to kids. Treat them as equals. Give them positive role models without filling their heads with s$%^. Haven't we all been there? Adults really need to grow up, methinks.

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Kind Regards,

KvH

[Topha]

hey kvh, i almost totally agree, but i think its just natural that boys of a certain age act as if they hate women. i used to do that myself, and i always closed my eyes when people were kissing in movies. BUT i only did that when my parents were around, and i usually peeked. so that age group is not the problem.
the problem is when movies get rated R because there is some nudity or offensive language in them ("the big lebowski" for example is a really peaceful movie with almost no violence or even action, it is (i think) rated R though, just because they use a certain word with f quite often), and other movies get rated pg-13, because you only see people shooting each other, none of them saying anything offensive. hope that sentence is not too screwed up.
the problem is that everyone is too worried about what others think of them. from my experience, the people that swear a lot when they are with people they know act most offended when people swear in public.
this does not mean that i think everyone should start swearing as much as they can, i just think that it shoulndt be taken too serious when people do. after all its just words. sticks and stones (and guns) can...
i guess im quite off topic now, and i gotta go to bed anyway so goodnight

[Rags]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">But why mention the drowning facts? Does the lessen the validity of banning guns at all?</font>

The reason I mention is that you seem to have the opinion that "Well, since guns are being used to kill people, it couldn't hurt to ban them." Well, that is total BS. In the US, law abiding citizens have the freedom to just about anything they want so long as they don't harm others.

In Wyoming at last Census, 89% of residents had firearms of some sort in their homes. Wyoming has one of the lowest violent crime rates world wide per capita. Montana, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota, Utah, and New Mexico are also states who are armed in a much higher percentage than the rest of the country, and their violent crime rates are the lowest in the nation. California is the second lowest in percentage of armed citizens, yet they have the third highest violent crime rate. Why is that? I can tell you why: It's not because of guns, it's because of population density. FACT: Crime rates increase proportionally with the increase of population density. Fact: Crime rates increase directly with the increase of poverty rates. Guns haven't been correlated to higher crime rates.

I don't buy the idea that we need to protect us from ourselves by legislating rubber rooms.

Rags



[This message has been edited by Rags (edited 12 March 2001).]

[Joel]

You know what I think part of the problem with some of our youth today and has been with some youth throughout history. Is that they are just so starved for attention. And now days they are seeing that the only way to get it is to commit the most heinous acts. I mean think about it, when I was coming up in school all you needed to do was to maybe cuss a little, wear your hair longer, even dress a little weird and that was enough. But today those things are status quo. We never show them any good, just look at the news. When was the last time you saw a good news news story recognizing someone for doing good. If it is there, it definitely does not get top billing. And this is what our youth is seeing, that you don't get recognized for doing good. Does that make it right, no, but it does tend to explain some things. Plus someone has already in this thread mentioned it but we as a society have our priorities out of wack. We will rate a movie R for showing a little tit and ass during a love making scene but will rate a movie PG-13 and in the course of that movie there may be several kills and a rape, as long as you don't see any tit and ass. Screwed up if you ask me. I think our youth are trying to tell us something and we better wake up before it is too late. I mean think about it, we are going to be looking to this very group of youth to take care of us as we grow older. Of course I say this things base on a 40 year old perspective.

Joel

[bongo]

Yeah Joel, youth are telling us that government treating children like adults is not the answer to anything; except maybe to those bent on revenge.

[Joel]

No, wrong, guess again.

Joel

[Guru]

While on the subject of guns and gun control... I think they should have some kind of bomb control for the US air force (Bomb accident the other day) and submarine control for the US navy (crash whith the Japanise(?) fishing boat)!

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