Northern Alliance To Take Kabul Tomorrow

[Rags]

Originally posted by The PIT
What the west should learn from all this is that it's not a good idea to support dodgy regimes. Supporting them when it politically suits the present government has been proven to be short sighted and costly in lifes. We're stuck with the NA and will have to tread carefully to prevent the formation of another hostile Government.
In this country we've got tighten up on sheltering terrorists and forget the stupid rule that if theres a death penatly we can't deport the murdering swine.
In the long term the only way to reduce Terrorism is international cooperation however you will always get countries that won't play the ball and as sanctions have proven ineffective against such regimes there will only be one course of action available.
Terrorism is going to be the blight of this century I feel.

I agree with you. But you have to realize that sometimes the line isn't so clear on what is the right thing to do. In the case of the NA, what would happen if we sent in troops to block them from doing their thing? I am sure we would be criticized to no end. It would probably end up in a gun fire with us killing those who share an enemy with us, and what would the good of that be? I am wary of the NA just like everyone else, but it was clear from the beginning what we were in Afghanistan for.

Rags

[Rags]

Here we differ. Withoout UN support, the action cannot be justified. Should the US decide a state is rough, but the rest of the world thiks otherwise, well the US cant just march in anyway.

Sorry, but I believe that if the US is being attacked and we know who is doing it, we should get the bastards with or without UN support.

Yup it hasnt.... I never said it did. We started this discussion disagreeing over the point that Pakistan was afraid that the US might attack it. I dont believe that the US would. But I also do not believe that Pakistan 'feared' attack, mearly that it saw its chance for a load of aid and sanctions lifted. Period. The rest of this was just gloss.

No the debate was started because of what you thought the "West put in motion", but anyhow you are wrong if you truly believe the sole reason for Pakistan giving us limited aid is economic sanctions. They are just a side effect that suit both us and them at the same time while saving face a bit for the Pakistani government. This happens all throughout history and for the general population at the time, it works, and it seems to be working at the moment. Even you are buying into it. We don't want to attack Pakistan and Pakistan doesn't want us to attack. Don't think for a minute that when we sent people over there that the thought in their minds wasn't "what will these guys do to us if we don't play ball?".

Personal insults, not worth commenting on

Not personal insults, just observations of how you respond to debate and how you came prepared for this one. That and my way of responding to your little flames. Lighten up.

I never thaught they would, because no nuclear country is threatening another! D'oh!

Sure you do. You think we won't attack another country that has nukes.

Thats nice

I think it is. Not fearing nuclear attack is very much a part of our discussion.

Thats good! Should the al queda be found to have, in your opion, (but noone elses) to have a cell in Turkey or Russia, then you will mow them down too? (that is not serious)

The problem with that is that they WOULD end up giving up who we ask for.

Already commented on and apologised for that.

You have a twisted way of apologizing. Even your second reply is grossly inaccurate. You are typical of the European community who loves to hate the US. It's so easy to paint us in that light to serve your purpose.

see 5 & 6

Of course you don't respond to personal insults, you just throw them out in a tantrum. When they are jested with, you put yourself above it as to be put on a higher plane than your adversary. How typical.

Rags

[RedRed]

I have no problems with people who dislike the US, but they better bring facts to the table rather than misconceptions.

Rags, Its not that I dislike the West / the US / or Anyone!
Wise up, man! I dont think that
[a] everyone is scared of the US attacking them
[b] politicians see byond the 'ive got a big stick, and I know how to use it' mentality that you are espousing. I feel that this is a dangerous and immature attitude, fortunately seems not shared by your government!

I think its best if we agree to differ on whether Pakistan was 'bending the knee' (your words) at the threat of american agression or whether the billions of dollars in aid and a lifting of sanctions was the factor which made it switch from Taliban benefactor to enemy.

You are typical of the European community who loves to hate the US.

Well thats typical of your attitude! I dont agree with you. I think american policy in this respect has been poor in the past. This does not meen I hate any bloody country! It is a marvelous place! I am not joking! Just because I do not agree with its policy on the middle East (on the environment either and on a couple of other things) does not meen I HATE A COUNTRY! Wake up! Grow Up!

Of course you don't respond to personal insults, you just throw them out in a tantrum. When they are jested with, you put yourself above it as to be put on a higher plane than your adversary. How typical.

I have never, ever started an insult first. Until reciently I never used them, even after provocation. I just gave up with YOU! As a rule I dont use foul language nor insults in fori. I just gave up here. I am sorry if my repetoire is not up to scratch.

Red

[RedRed]

Mordrid

Besides: if you add up the total $$ in weapons imported from e. Europe and Libya on the Soviet Unions ticket to NOaid contributions my guess is that the US donations to NOaid are still in 2nd place and not by a little.

The weapons imported, yes, and by far.

The funds raised to pay for these, are, by current estimates (unless your a member, you wouldnt know for sure):

US (Noraid ops) - (about) 50%
Racketeering(NI)- (about) 20 %
Racketeering/roberies etc (Southern Ireland) (about) 10%

Historically, donations from these countries (middle East / Eastern Europeans) have been in the form of training, rarely in the form of Munitions. Weapons have generally been baught, as I understand it.
RedRed

[Ant]

Watch it guys this was is getting close to the (my) line in parts.

Just because someone does not agree with the policies of a particular country's government does not mean that person dislikes that country or its people. I disagree with many policies of the UK government, that does not mean I dislike my own country and fellow citizens. To say the European Community loves to hate the US is quite rediculous and insulting in my book, being a European and all. I find it quite amazing that you could feel that way, is that a common US feeling? If so you must have some pretty warped reporting on current affairs over there.

[RedRed]

Thanks Ant.

I knew that not everyone could feel that to disagree with american public opion means you hate the country! And rags, I did find it hurtful, your comments about my 'hatred of americans/the west' (you have said both). The product of a free country is that you can disagree with the majority. The sad attempts at bullying you have displayed in this thread do you no good at all.

Maybe I AM misinformed. I ALWAYS stand ready to be corrected. I have yet to recieve a reasoned argument to change my feeling/mind.
Mordrid has posted some excellent stuff (as I have said before), in this thread and in others. I feel that he has a somewhat simplified view of Norther Ireland Politics, but thats OK, its a minefield!

hey! thats just my ignorance showing through.

redRed

[Dr Mordrid]

Yes, that continental Europe loves to hate the US is a very mainstream feeling in the States. And it's not without cause....and the problem isn't "reporting". It's what comes out of their own mouths and their actions that raises our hackles.

We find many of the European countries (certainly NOT Britain!!) two-faced in their support in that they'll provide public support, for a time, while dealing with a foe under the table for financial gain. Then they'll publically hammer as "misguided US policy" the exact positions they themselves helped to formulate at the UN. ARRRGGGHHHHH!!!!

It's enough to give one a migrane....

The situation with France and others violating the Iraq travel bans set by the UN is one example. The same parties selling dual-use technologies to Iraq after the Gulf War, in seeming violation of the Wassenaar Arrangement of 1996, are another. These practices will end up biting all of us in our collective asses sooner than later if those involved aren't careful.

The dual-use technologies can seem innocuous, like mini-brewery equipment, but can be used to produce chemical weapons directly or can be modified for use in producing biologicals. These actions by our European "friends" may end up requiring the US to take action against the Iraqi installations using these technologies after we're finished with Afghanistan.

These actions, and the need to correct their aftermath, puts US personnel at risk and also brings on the possibility that some of Iraq's production will end up being used against the citizenry of the world, including you Europeans, by Iraq or one of its down-stream "customers". All because our European "allies" couldn't practice some self-restraint.

So...if Europeans, and the EU, don't like our feeling this way then perhaps some introspection is in order on their part, because the signs of Euro-duplicity on this side of the pond are not that hard to see.

Since Sept. 11 the words have sounded better. We'll see what the actions look like after this is over....

Dr. Mordrid

[The PIT]

I think you find it just isn't europe breaking treaties. Most countries will look the other way if they feel it's to there temporary advantage and that they can get away with it.
Anyone remember the super gun farce with the Tory Government. What a corrupt bunch of wallies but they got away with it.
Unfortunatley with any type of sanction theres always someone ready to break it and even if they were succesful the only ones to suffer are the people while the ones holding the power just continue taking all whats available.

[mdhome]

standoff

Hey Chaps, it seems that we have a standoff. In one corner we have the US that believes that Europe doesnt like them and has double standards and in the other we have the rest of the world who also believe the same of the US. Now if we cant get along fine then a possible recourse is for both sides to give documented details to prove their case. Those with the most valid points wins . Failing that I propose that we close the thread. It has caused its fair share of friction.


regards MD

[The PIT]

I'd out it down to cultural differances.
A lot of brits don't like europe either.

[cjolley]

Dr Mordred,
He's even more out to lunch than than you think.

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid

...Regan had made the policy decision that no Soviet move would go un-answered and one-upped....
Dr. Mordrid

and,

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid

...And for good measure: the put in place during the Gulf war that warns that if we are attacked with weapons of mass destruction we reserve the option to respond with nukes....
Dr. Mordrid

These policies were put in place by Harry Truman in 1945.

It was probably put to Pakistan this way:
"You have armed yourself like a big boy. You are going to have to play by big boy rules. You know the rules. You have 10 seconds to tell us which side you are on."

The idea that Pakistan would commit suicide as a country to destroy a few US war ships is silly.

chuck

[Joel]

Just read the following in my local paper.

"Foreigners fighting with the Taliban have killed more than 400 of their Afghan comrades to keep them from defecting to the opposition, soldiers and refugees say."..."The Arabs and Pakistanis have decided that the Afghans are not pure enough for them, and so are killing them."

Joel

[Ant]

Well I have to say that really suprises me, as from where I stand I see Europe always getting attacked by the rest of the World for being too pro-US, and not just the UK. I really think a lot of it is down to cultural misunderstanding. Yes many European countries bend the rules a little, the UK and the US bend them a lot, I think it is six of one and half a dozen of the other. If we want to talk about countries supplying arms to undesireables then I think the US and the UK have been proabably two of the worst culprits around.

As for America being self serving and standing alone that is the worst possible thing that could happen, it will only further alienate the US and allow pathetic little despots like Slimey Bin Liner to thrive feeding off anti-US feelings. What must come of all of what has happened this year is that the World must grow much closer together not further apart otherwise we'll never see the end of this and people will continue to live in fear. To do this we must all compromise to some degree and realise that we are not all alike, we don't all share the same views and we never will but that does not mean we cannot get on and live together.

[RedRed]

Chuck

Dr Mordred,
He's even more out to lunch than than you think.

I never mentioned/started that waffle about perssings. Dr Mordred did. Nor did I mention Regan, Nor did I mention the Gulf War. Please dont come off with insults unless you have read the entire post.

The idea that Pakistan would commit suicide as a country to destroy a few US war ships is silly.

I know it is! it would not happen like that, you are mis-quoting me.

At the end of the day, Pakistan was not, as far as any of us know, threatened bt the US. I believe it would have been foolish and short sighted, you believe it was done. Fair enough. I do not believe that any country would give full support because of threats.

I believe that the British, the French, and a few other countries in the world have the maturity to play the 'great game' of international politics with skill. I do not believe that the US is particularly skilled, and mearly looks to the short term (America did not have a real forien policy until WWII, in my humble opinion (except a win against the Mexicans and a loss to the the canadians!) - just border wars. The idea that being the only superpower makes you right, is misguided. The Idea that a country can bully another into doing what it wants, is dangerous.

[Rags]

Watch it guys this was is getting close to the (my) line in parts.

Fair enough.

Just because someone does not agree with the policies of a particular country's government does not mean that person dislikes that country or its people. I disagree with many policies of the UK government, that does not mean I dislike my own country and fellow citizens.

I agree 100%, but when there is a blanket statement that just says "The west is responsible for the turmoil in the mideast", and no particular policies or alternatives are given, it is bashing IMO.

To say the European Community loves to hate the US is quite rediculous and insulting in my book, being a European and all.

You shouldn't find it insulting at all. The UK is the one glaring exception for the most part. It doesn't change what the heads of state in many European countries have said about the US during US government visits during the first months of our new presidential administration.

I find it quite amazing that you could feel that way, is that a common US feeling? If so you must have some pretty warped reporting on current affairs over there.

Oh come on, it's not just the reporting, it's the people we deal with from Europe here on a daily basis. It's a very common feeling that we are looked upon as big, dumb bullies. I even see it here on these forums where I believe many of us are friends in ways. You haven't seen any of that here? You have never heard the term "Stupid Americans"? It's sad but true.

Rags