Speaking the Truth gets you jailed in France.

[Dogbert]

Guys,

As much as we hate to admit it, religion rules big time over us.

As a start, let's go back to the times of the kings of Israel. A king would become king when the high priest did some ritual on him.
This has passed on to the rest of the world (see why England left Catholicism).
If you check the kings that came after the time sof the Bible, you'll see that the royalty soon learned that the clergy holds immense power over the people and kas the key to being a king. So royalty and priesthood started to mix, from king nominated high priest, to 1 person king-priest.

Today, things aren't THAT different. In the age of PC we talk about 'morals' insstead of religion but:
Our day off is the religious day, our vacations are holy days and many many laws are actually based on the major religion of the country rather than morals or logic.
The religious establishment has a huge power over our lives. If before it was straighforward, now it's in two different planes. One is politics and the other is the fact that whatever you do, you're still bound to the religious pattern of 7 day weeks, vacations = holy days etc.

[efty]

I don't know much about the Catholics, even though I am babtized Orthodox I don't really know much about about Orthodoxy either, actually I read New testament and John's revelation when I was young, but that has nothing to do with the interpretation given by the church. And yes I remember too at school being tought about religious dogma and asking the teacher about it and he told it is a dogma you cannot understand it. To be honest I still don't understand it

Regarding Paganism. Well it is true, at least from my experience in the Eastern Orthodox church. It is funny how lets say Jupiter got replaced by St Nicholas, or how Mars by some other saint which I don't remember. Every ancient God was replaced by a saint just to satisfy the and prosilitize the local community. So there is nothing strange there. People need religion because it satisfies some needs. If they want lots of "gods" a religion will come forth to satisfy it. Actually even alive people can be godified attributed miracles etc.

The fact is that since people are catholics and assume they want to be then this is what they want(excluding st pedo etc hehe )

[mutz]

Does anybody know of any organized religion that wasn't organized long after the master was dead?

Weren't all the masters spiritual people, generally or specifically at odds with any religion of the time?

Do you know of any master in whose name a religion was founded who died a natural death?

Do you know of any master who would have supported what was done in his name long after his death?

Do you support a religion that the master himself would not, were he to return today?

Can you kill and destroy in the name of your religion, or is it just a justification to do what you want to do anyway?

Do you seek other than your own inner peace and contentment in your religion?

Are you a spiritual being or a member of a club?

What do you really know?

What do YOU really want?

[Dogbert]

Errr...

Moses died kind of a 'natural' death and he isn't supposed to to be ressurected at any time.
Even though Moses is the 'master' of jewish religion, nothing is actually don in his name.

The nice thing about TRUE judaism, is that there aren't saints and 'masters' etc. There is God. That's it.
All the prophets and the great peoplel of the past are just that - great servants of God - humans.

[Dogbert]

By the way, in this regard, Eastern religions are the coolests.

[mutz]

...master, in this sense, is enlightened master, "one who has mastered himself", and thereby attracted those who seek the same, and out of his compassion, decides to share what he has. There have been many people who have become enlightened, but chosen, perhaps wisely, not to be masters.

Ressurection is an interesting topic. There is a well founded version of Jesus's life in which his time in the "wildernis" was actually with enlightened masters in India. Out of compassion for his homeland, he returned for three years to "share". In gratitude, his homelanders nailed him up on the cross. When he was laid in the tomb, he was almost dead, but not quite. His family and friends removed him from the tomb, nutured him back to health in a secret place, and then smuggled him back to India. He lived to the age of 100 in Srinigar, quietly sharing his enlightenment with friends and disciples. Today in Srinigar there are 2,000 year old stone carvings and even street names in Aramac, Jesus's mother tongue.

But expect no recognition or pursuit of this version. Christmas and Easter are a multi-billion dollar business now.

It was good Moses knew where the stones were and his pursuers didn't in that dash across the Red Sea, otherwise his death wouldn't have been so peaceful.

Judaism has had many masters, but mostly thrown out, like Jesus. No religion can tolerate a living master 'cause all the priests, rabbis, imams, popes would get fired on the spot. No?

[Dogbert]

Mutz,

That isn't 100% true. Even though there is a pope, you still need priests to take care of the communities.

When there's a supreme judge, you still need lesser judges to take care of the masses.
It does mean though that there is a form of centralised power , thus less power to the small ones.

If you check Jewish history, the best times were the times when Israel was mostly ruled by the "Sanhedrin" - a council of the wise elders. But who listens to the elders these days anyway ?

If you have a chance, take a peek at Jewish history during between the 1st temple demolition and the second one. You'll see that all errors have already been made and all kinds of curroption already existed. Like the wise king Solomon said - Nothing is new under the sun.

[Joel]

Christianity is viewed by some as paganism and of the worshiping of many Gods because of the concept of the Trinity. (Which is a concept that I even have a hard time understanding even though I was brought up in a Christian home.) That is partly how Islam got started because of Mohamand's misunderstanding of that concept also. Plus his claim to have received the true word of God throught the Angel Gaberial. Some Christians pray no different to 'The Father, the Son and and the Holy Ghost' than Muslims pray to Allaha and his great servant Mohamand. Plus they also believe that since Mohamand was the last great servant of God then what he claims to have been told should nulify everything else that had come before or thereafter since there would be not others.

Joel

Disclaimer: I don't claim to be 100% correct this is just how I understand it.

PS: I believe that any religion that advocates hate is not right. Jesus in Matthew 5:43-48 of the New King James Version tells us to love our enemy.

43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

[mutz]

...as I understand it, Christ actually meant body, soul and spirit. The body meaning the present incorporation, the soul meaning the eternal and the spirit meaning the guiding light. Perhaps the disciples could only grasp it in terms of father, son and holy ghost.

Actually, the masters message comes as a direct transmission to the body and soul through the spirit. Putting it into words can only give a hint, a shadow of the transmission, and words in the hands of those who missed the transmission are subjet to contortion, falsification, manipulation, and that's where the trouble starts....

[mutz]

...ok Dogbert, but for me this is apples and oranges, spirituality and religion.

For example, even as a boy, Jesus went daily to the tempel and argued spirituality with the Rabbis who were trying to pound religion into him. Yet he always beat them at their own game, to the Rabbis frustration and rage.

When Jesus returned from India, the Rabbis were just waiting to sit in judgement over him, only to have Jesus brush them off like flies and make fools of them. In their impotence to stop him and their power in threat, they went to Pontius Pilot, who was actually facinated by Jesus, and demanded that something be done about this rabble-rouser against public order and religion. Pilot was reluctantly forced to do something, but then it all got out of hand. You know the rest.

Though you may find spirituality among the relgious, religion imposes itself as authority, which is by definition anti-spiritual.

So we have to decide which we are talking about...

[mutz]

...and forgive me for triple posting...

Christ transmitted love, but for those who couldn't recieve it directly, his words were to trigger love in those who had forgotten it. His mention of the tax collectors was what those who could recieve neither used to crucify him.

...and forgive me for saying it, but the situation in Isreal and much of the world is the work of those who want to forget love and sit in judgement. Love is too mysterious, too vast, too threatening, better to stamp it out in the name of anything convenient....

[Hati]

Don't get me started on the shocking parallels between Catholic mass and druidic ritual, or on their funerals...

well, beeing a Catholic it looks like I missed some interesting things by keeping away from churches for the last 20 years or so. Maybe I should give it a try again

My opinion:
whenever religion (no matter what kind of religion) tries to get too much influence in everydays life it is a bad thing.
I don't care what people believe in as long as they don't start to try to 'convert' other people.
Religions should be a more 'private' thing for people who have the need to believe in mysteries. Believe it - but leave me alone.

Hati

[The PIT]

Now if God only would come down and give an interview that would stop all argument. Or would it??

[mutz]

God and Jesus were playing golf one Sunday. Jesus beat him on almost every hole.

On the eighteenth hole Jesus whacked a hole in one.

The clouds gathered black, rumbling of thunder, and a huge bolt of lightning shot out of the sky and there was nothing left of poor Jesus but a small pile of crispy ashes.

"How's that for a putt ****ole?" quoth God.

[The PIT]

LOL