Police kill man holding sword

[Rakido]

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/06/09/Tampabay/Police_kill_man_holdi.shtml

got this link today; quite a sad story and what it makes it even more sadder is the fact that i knew this guy from an online mud where we played and teamed together some years ago.

I really really hope i don't have to read something similiar about any of you guys


R.

[Maggi]

what a sad story ...

[Whirl-Secret]

Whoah, what madness! (Spoiler)

Someone makes a phonecall asking for help with an armed and suicidal relative in his own home and they send the police round with shotguns to break the door down. I'm glad I don't live there.

[az]

Yup

[az]

If the mods could split the thread, that'd be nice. See you later guys, off to watching Germany kick Argentina out of the World Cup in an Ethiopean restaurant

[ND66]

What a story....., very sad.

A.

[High_Jumbllama]

[Jon P. Inghram]

Dang, the phrase "There can be only one!" can't really work with this story...

[Dr Mordrid]

When officers entered the second-floor unit at Lantana Apartments, at 200 Fairwood Ave., in Clearwater, Joshua was behind a closed door, police said. Officer Robert Furman was carrying a shotgun that fires the bean-bag projectiles, while officer George Phillips carried his department-issued .40-caliber handgun.

So far, so good. They were on an armed domestic violence call, so not entering would have been the worst action to take.

In terns of their equipment; one had non-lethal means (shotgun loaded with bean bags) and the other was covering him with the pistol. I'd prefer a Taser over the shotgun/bean bag combo, but a lot of police depts. shy from them because of the local lawsuit environment.

Tear gas or flash-bangs both present a fire hazzard, not to mention if he were asthmatic tear gas itself could well have been fatal.

Within seconds of entering the apartment, Joshua confronted them with the sword, police said. Furman fired one bean-bag from his weapon; the projectile struck Joshua in the chest, but did not subdue him, according to police.
Phillips then shot him at least once with his handgun, and Joshua Rosenbloom fell to the floor, police said.

No cop in his right mind will approach within range of a man holding a samauri sword!! Someone who knows what they're doing could cut them both to shreds in a flash.

Obviously the man isn't listening or thinking clearly, and therefore is a danger to himself and others including the cops. The situation has to be ended. How is the question.

Wrestling him down presents too much danger to the cops and any others in the room for the reasons above.

Aiming for his hand/arm isn't the best action if he's in motion. Legs aren't good either since a man on his knees can still run you through. In fact it's a pretty solid attack position.

That leaves you the torso or a head shot. The lower torso isn't a shot that instantly disables, so the heart/lung & head are the only 1-2 shot targets that will instantly end the situation. Both are lethal.

IMO it was his own agressive actions that forced the cops to act as they did.

Bottom line: the cops played the only cards dealt to them in a way that got them home to their own families at the end of the shift.

Dr. Mordrid

[Nowhere]

Are you sure about the legs? I don't necesserily question that "on his knees" is a solid attack position...but I somehow don't believe that many people would do much in shock after beeing shot. Besides he wouldn't present that much danger if he basically couldn't move...

[Dr Mordrid]

'Shoot-to-wound', especially to the legs, sounds nice but is in practice often a ticket to the morgue. I've seen many cops fall victim to this misplaced bit of altruism in he ER, and a large percentage didn't make it.

Some people when hyped on adrenaline, drugs or both can be extraordinarily resilient to being shot dead-bang. Such people can often only stopped by a head shot. All a leg or arm wound would do is piss them off.

EX: one night we had an ER patient who was a home invader who made the mistake of hitting a cops house. The cop met him on the stairs; cop at the top & home invader at mid-stairs holding a butcher knife. He wasn't preparing to slice the turkey guys

The invader ignored all warnings, so the cop shot him in the chest with his .357 Magnum. He kept coming. Cop warned & shot again. Same result. It took 5 shots to drop him and when he got to our ER he was still combative.

Toxicology screen: NEGATIVE! No alcohol, no PCP, no NOTHING.

Combat training 101: if you have to shoot, shoot to kill.

Dr. Mordrid

[schmosef]

You're completely wrong Nowhere.

When an officer is in a position where he has to shoot someone to protect himself from an immediate attack the officer's obligation is 100% to his own protection.

It's a shame that the guy died but he's reponsible for his own actions and the outcome.

[Whirl-Secret]

I guess it's the NA ppl who don't mind the police actions. And not that Eurozone is possibly any better, I live in a country where plain-clothes police officers wave guns, chase a scared innocent electrician into a subway train and shoot him in the head while holding him down, and there's a chance he might not have even know it was the police chasing him.

I was commenting more on the fact that this was an extremely unsympathetic and violent responce to a domestic situation. I think the article said that his own sister called the police, she obviously didn't want him to be shot (how does she feel now? that's the real tragedy) but maybe the police negotiator / psychiatrist was on lunchbreak so they send 2 squaddies down there to break his door down with intentions of disarming him by force.

Not saying this was the scenario for this guy but if I was feeling suicidal and had a samurai sword, it really wouldn't help the situation if 2 policement kicked my door down and pointed guns at me. I would at least shout at them to **** off and get me a new door, and wouldn't feel inclined to put the sword down at all!

[Dr Mordrid]

In NA a domestic violence situation is the #2 way cops get killed so yes, they take them VERY seriously. They could meet up with someone hopped up on crank, acid, cocaine or whatever and armed with anything from fists to a knife, baseball bat, firearm or bazooka.

As such here the best move when they say 'drop' is to drop to the floor and sort out the nicities later.

Also: a recent Supreme Court decision says that if they have a warrant they don't have to even knock. Same thing if there is reasonable cause to believe a crime is being commited inside, esp. a violent one.

Dr. Mordrid

[KvHagedorn]

I would concur that the taser would have been the best solution by far. Damn the lawsuits.. now the family can sue for wrongful death. You have to do what's right, and with this technology, that would have been highly appropriate. Tasers remove a person's ability to move their muscles pretty well, so the threat is removed as well.. especially with some guy weilding a sword. A gun cocked and aimed might not be the same case, however.