Prius emission test fiasco

[Paddy]

I _BUY_ my BMW's at 10 years old. At 10 years old, a BMW will outperform and outlast any vehicle made by Toyota (bar the Supra) when it is new.

AND it'll still get 30mpg at 10 years old. And at 15 years old.

erm.. am I the only one here that doesn't think 30mpg is anything to be proud of? If I am getting less than 45mpg I know that my wife has been trashing it. I have got well into the 60+mpg on motorways... I don't drive anything special.

[Brian Ellis]

And the modern Mercs are worth little more than a Chrysler: they are just as crappy, starting with the Smart, then the A-series and so on upwards.

The first Lexus used the same chassis/bodywork as Toyotas.

[cjolley]

Pffff! Lexus is no more really a Toyota than Mercedes is a Chrysler. *snicker*

Balderdash.

At the time my car was made Lexus was nothing but a plastic badge stuck on high end Toyotas to make the dumb Americans feel better about paying $35,000 for a Toyota.

You know not whereof you speak.
*snicker* yourself.

[Gurm]

Yup, it's a hiway cruzer, not a kart.

BTW it's a 93 GS300 with 170,000 miles on it,
no rattles
uses no oil between changes
can still do pretty close to 150mph
gets 28mpg @ 80 mph

Of course it's real name is Toyota Arista.

Pffff! Lexus is no more really a Toyota than Mercedes is a Chrysler. *snicker*

[cjolley]

Yup, it's a hiway cruzer, not a kart.

BTW it's a 93 GS300 with 170,000 miles on it,
no rattles
uses no oil between changes
can still do pretty close to 150mph
gets 28mpg @ 80 mph

Of course it's real name is Toyota Arista.

[Gurm]

Oddly, the tires seem to work fine in the rain.
I wonder how long that will last.

Like I said, I may just notice the noise because I alternate between the Honda and a Lexus.

It's possible. You REALLY see the differences between vehicles that way. Lexi are nice, but a bit... soft (most models). It's funny seeing someone who is used to a Mercedes get into a Lexus, and suddenly go "my god it's so SQUISHY how can you ride in this?!!?"

Or conversely, someone who is used to Japanese cars gets into a Volvo or Mercedes or BMW and goes "my god it's like riding with steel posts instead of shocks!"

Of course all bets are off with "new" Volvos, which are just rebadged Fords.

[cjolley]

Oddly, the tires seem to work fine in the rain.
I wonder how long that will last.

Like I said, I may just notice the noise because I alternate between the Honda and a Lexus.

[Brian Ellis]

Well, I hope that mine has tyres with a softer rubber than that. I like to be able to stop on the odd occasion when it rains!

Maybe that is the cause of the road noise. Can't say I noticed undue road noise when I test drove.

[Gurm]

This is my first Honda, we use it for an in town car.
It's really quite good for that.

Really the only complaint I have is the road noise.

And I think they "helped" us by installing supposedly 100,000 mile tires on it. Read hard as rocks.
A set of Falken 512's in a couple of years will probably help a lot.

Well that NEVER helps. If you want 60k tires that don't suck, try Kumho. They're cheap, but perform pretty well, it's what I use now.

[cjolley]

And again... it's a Civic. The only way that Honda and Toyota make these things affordable is to take their bottom-of-the-barrel platform, rip off most of the trim, and slap in the electrics. Then they gussy it up so that it looks a bit nicer.

This is my first Honda, we use it for an in town car.
It's really quite good for that.

Really the only complaint I have is the road noise.

And I think they "helped" us by installing supposedly 100,000 mile tires on it. Read hard as rocks.
A set of Falken 512's in a couple of years will probably help a lot.

[Gurm]

[QUOTE=cjolleyMy only complaint is road noise, but my regular car is a Lexus so I have no experience with current small cars other than it.[/QUOTE]

And again... it's a Civic. The only way that Honda and Toyota make these things affordable is to take their bottom-of-the-barrel platform, rip off most of the trim, and slap in the electrics. Then they gussy it up so that it looks a bit nicer.

[Gurm]

When was the last time you shopped for a BMW?
A 2006 325 with 20k on it goes for $34,000 (found some for $30,000)
There is no 2007.

Yeah sorry, they discontinued the 325. And the 318 is only available on alternate years.

A new 2007 328 goes for $29,000 with vinyl seats.

Sorry, they don't do cloth. Seriously though, they usually run a special a couple times a year to get into one for $26k.

We paid almost exactly ($23,000 - 2,300 tax credit) = $20,700 for our Civic Hybrid

That's cool. But... it's a Civic.

[cjolley]

...
Nope. BMW 325 starts at 26k. Nicely equipped. Nicely equipped Prius runs into the 30's, although you can get last year's stripped model for $22.
...

When was the last time you shopped for a BMW?
A 2006 325 with 20k on it goes for $34,000 (found some for $30,000)
There is no 2007.

A new 2007 328 goes for $29,000 with vinyl seats.

We paid almost exactly ($23,000 - 2,300 tax credit) = $20,700 for our Civic Hybrid

PS The gas engines in hybrids are likely to last a long time due to reduced stress.

PPS By the time the battery in our car goes out they are likely to be a lot cheaper than they are now.
After all, right now a battery would only be replaced in one under very unusual circumstances, so the market is tiny.

[Gurm]

You're ranting again. Now say something sensible, such as the way to avoid accidents is anticipation. Touch wood, I have been driving for >50 years and I've yet to cause an accident. In fact, the only accident (not counting touchettes) I've been involved in was when a 28 tonne truck doing ~ 75 km/h hit me in the back when changing lanes, swung me round in front of him, pushed me along sideways for ~100 m and stopped when my car went, still sideways, into a lamppost. It's quite impressive to have a truck radiator about 30 cm from your left ear. And guess what? This robust shell of a car that protected me from injury (slight whiplash was all I had) was a Toyota front-wheel drive, not a Merc or BMW or other European crap but something made in Nagoya. When the cops came, the sergeant asked me who and where the driver of the Toyota was. I said that I was he (I had climbed out of the sun roof). He took one look at me and said that a) he needn't ask if I was wearing a seat belt and b) I was lucky that I was in a Toyota and not a French, German or Italian car, because his experience in dealing with hundreds of accidents is that the lamppost would have crushed me under the circumstances (it ended up about 20 cm from my right side). The galling thing is that I was driving the car home after its 800 km free service! I had that car exactly 10 days!

For every experience like this, there's someone who, while driving a Civic or Corolla, hit a deer on a back road at 35mph and nearly died because their "safe" car crumpled and the airbags went off and maimed them and then they rolled into a ditch and broke every bone in their body. But they SURVIVED! ... uh... great.

[Gurm]

GURM, some points:

1, Fiberglass? Where on earth did you get that? We have owned our 2007 Civic Hybrid for 6 months now and as far as I can tell there is no fiberglass anywhere on the car. It is standard steel and plastic construction.

Plastic, fiberglass. It crumples.

2, I'll take the crash testers word over yours on survivability. Sorry.

You will? Go for it. All I know is that German steel has saved Julie's life repeatedly, and that nobody making plastic cars has ever put their money where their mouth is and offered $500k if anyone dies in their cars. For every "my Toyota saved my life" story like Brian's, there's a "I got in a 25mph accident with my Camry and broke both arms and two ribs but it ... SAVED MY LIFE ..." but you know some of us get in 25mph accidents and don't even NOTICE because our cars are built so well. Due to the commute to Boston, I've been rear-ended in excess of 25mph twice in the past 6 months in my 940, and BOTH times there has been NO VISIBLE DAMAGE to my vehicle. Not so the front ends of the Ford Behemoth and the Jeep Gigantor... although those vehicles are also built well and were both driveable.

Point in fact is crash tests tell you NOTHING about what will happen when a car hydroplanes into another on the highway. 30mph in a lab tells you NOTHING. And I've SEEN those tests, the cars EXPLODE. They save your life just like they should, but they're totaled afterwards!

3, Most of your argument seems so be based on comparing the price and quality of a current hybrid to a Beemer of two years from now at the price of one that is 10 years old.

Nope. BMW 325 starts at 26k. Nicely equipped. Nicely equipped Prius runs into the 30's, although you can get last year's stripped model for $22.

And I'm comparing CURRENT car quality to a 10-year-old Bimmer, to be sure. No Toyota or Honda built today is as nice as a 10-year-old BMW.