Prius emission test fiasco

[cjolley]

GURM, some points:

1, Fiberglass? Where on earth did you get that? We have owned our 2007 Civic Hybrid for 6 months now and as far as I can tell there is no fiberglass anywhere on the car. It is standard steel and plastic construction.

2, I'll take the crash testers word over yours on survivability. Sorry.

3, Most of your argument seems so be based on comparing the price and quality of a current hybrid to a Beemer of two years from now at the price of one that is 10 years old.


@ Bryan The Civic has been a fine little car. My only complaint is road noise, but my regular car is a Lexus so I have no experience with current small cars other than it.
Currently averaging 39.4 mpg (~6 L/100KM) all in town.

[Brian Ellis]

You're ranting again. Now say something sensible, such as the way to avoid accidents is anticipation. Touch wood, I have been driving for >50 years and I've yet to cause an accident. In fact, the only accident (not counting touchettes) I've been involved in was when a 28 tonne truck doing ~ 75 km/h hit me in the back when changing lanes, swung me round in front of him, pushed me along sideways for ~100 m and stopped when my car went, still sideways, into a lamppost. It's quite impressive to have a truck radiator about 30 cm from your left ear. And guess what? This robust shell of a car that protected me from injury (slight whiplash was all I had) was a Toyota front-wheel drive, not a Merc or BMW or other European crap but something made in Nagoya. When the cops came, the sergeant asked me who and where the driver of the Toyota was. I said that I was he (I had climbed out of the sun roof). He took one look at me and said that a) he needn't ask if I was wearing a seat belt and b) I was lucky that I was in a Toyota and not a French, German or Italian car, because his experience in dealing with hundreds of accidents is that the lamppost would have crushed me under the circumstances (it ended up about 20 cm from my right side). The galling thing is that I was driving the car home after its 800 km free service! I had that car exactly 10 days!

[Gurm]

Wrong on some counts. The Civic Hybrid (which is not all fibreglass) has earned a very reputable 5 (top score) on crash tests.

I've seen the '5 star' crash tests. The Dodge Neon got high scores too, but in any accident the Neon will... disappear. I'm FAR more interested in what happens when you powerslide into another car at 60mph in the rain than what happens in a lab at 25mph. I drive cars that offer life insurance for their occupants. Roll a Civic Hybrid down a ravine after leaving the road at 45mph, and I dare you to walk away. And yet BMW's and Volvos routinely save the lives of their occupants in high-speed collisions, the kind that leave a civic as a small pile of parts - both human and automotive.

Fun is relative. Some drivers may find it fun to try and get the best consumption, rather than to leave rubber uselessly on the tarmac and selfishly and needlessly pollute the atmosphere in doing so.

My point is that we can have both, can't we? If I can pull a few G's on the track and still get 30mpg, that's a reasonable compromise for now.

Plus, performance is key to accident avoidance. I can't COUNT the number of times something has happened in front of me and I can either brake well enough or have a vehicle nimble enough to avoid it. Front-wheel-drive sloppy steering systems with computer-overridden antilock brakes and so-called "stability control" systems... give the appearance of benefit for the untrained but for everyone else they're just a pain in the ass.

Lifespan is yet to be proven, but it is significant that the essential parts have an 8-10 year guarantee. Try and find that on any BMW!

10 year powertrain. Standard on Volvo, BMW, Mercedes. Define "essential parts". I guarantee it's the powertrain and that big ol' battery, nothing else. That's what it always is when someone whips out the "10 year warranty". BMW, Volvo, Mercedes have 5-year, 60k bumper-to-bumper. And that means ANYTHING. Doors not well insulated enough? Covered. Blew a speaker on the radio? Covered. Not so on a "10 year warranty" car. I've seen people bring in Kias where after 5000 miles the rear strut mounts were squeaking and grinding, and be told that it was normal wear and not covered!

I also guarantee that they stop supporting the battery when they discover that they really only have a 5-year lifespan and it costs $10k to replace.

[Brian Ellis]

The fact that they're all made of fiberglass and thus hideously unsafe... and that they're about as fun to drive as your average econobox... and that their expected lifespan is probably somewhat LESS than the cars I'm used to driving... is something that I'm sure someone will address someday. Until then I'll pass, though.

Wrong on some counts. The Civic Hybrid (which is not all fibreglass) has earned a very reputable 5 (top score) on crash tests. Fun is relative. Some drivers may find it fun to try and get the best consumption, rather than to leave rubber uselessly on the tarmac and selfishly and needlessly pollute the atmosphere in doing so. Lifespan is yet to be proven, but it is significant that the essential parts have an 8-10 year guarantee. Try and find that on any BMW!

[Gurm]

I think that some here have not understood why the Prius failed. It's because the software cuts the engine speed so that the standard 2500 rpm cannot be maintained for the duration of the test. It has nothing to do with the quality of the emitted gases.

Intentional misunderstanding in order to rant, Brian, is not the same as 'not getting it'.

Hopefully, my long wait for a hybrid car (not a Prius!) will be over within the next few weeks: promised for the beginning of next month.

In general I think hybrids are quite nice and great for the environment. The fact that they're all made of fiberglass and thus hideously unsafe... and that they're about as fun to drive as your average econobox... and that their expected lifespan is probably somewhat LESS than the cars I'm used to driving... is something that I'm sure someone will address someday. Until then I'll pass, though.

[Brian Ellis]

I think that some here have not understood why the Prius failed. It's because the software cuts the engine speed so that the standard 2500 rpm cannot be maintained for the duration of the test. It has nothing to do with the quality of the emitted gases.

Hopefully, my long wait for a hybrid car (not a Prius!) will be over within the next few weeks: promised for the beginning of next month.

[Dr Mordrid]

The batteries with most promise are A123Systems Nanophosphate Li-Ion's. Upcoming plug-in and next-gen hybrids will be using them, including GM.

Ex:

From 0 to 60 MPH in Under 1.5 Seconds, KillaCycle Sets New World Speed Record with A123Systems; Company's Lithium-Ion Batteries Help Achieve The World's Fastest Electric Powered Quarter Mile

[rylan]

Most of the hybrid cars have a standard 10 year battery warranty... but yes I highly doubt a NiMH battery can last that long, especially with wide operating temperature ranges.

It'll be ineresting when the Li-ion hybrids start showign up within the next couple years. Lots of energy storage, but lets just hope that Sony doesn't supply any of them!

[ZokesPro]

I thought you meant new. You forgot the battery. Doubt that sucker will last 10 years.

[degrub]

Must have been the same guys doing the emission test.

[Gurm]

The least expensive BMW costs about $5K more than the Prius.

BMW 3-series starts at $26k. For that amount, you've already got more trim (barring the "computer" in the Prius) than is even available on the Prius, not to mention the astonishing performance and handling of the BMW.

Prius starts at... oh, look. Same price, give or take. About $25k for a 2007, 2008's are impossible to get. And for that $25k you get... base model trim. Add on features and all of a sudden you're into the 30's without even blinking.

So I was off by a little. It's a $5k difference.

I'll still keep my $5k. An extra 10-15mpg seems like a lot, and is for commuting, but at the expense of ALL handling, road-feel, and... oh wait, the Prius is front-drive, yeah? Talk to me again when they make all-wheel (rear dominant or 50/50) or rear-wheel. Wait, what do you mean they never will? *gasp*

Never... mind.

Now NONE of this takes into account that a 5-year-old Toyota usually already feels BEAT, especially one that's closer to a base-level Corolla than anything else (and don't tell me a Prius is based on the Camry because it just can't possibly be, since it's the same price as the Camry). At 10 years? Toyotas are ready to be retired or rebuilt. They WILL run forever, but they won't run NICELY for longer than a few years.

I _BUY_ my BMW's at 10 years old. At 10 years old, a BMW will outperform and outlast any vehicle made by Toyota (bar the Supra) when it is new.

AND it'll still get 30mpg at 10 years old. And at 15 years old.

I'm not saying the Prius is a bad car. But the odds of a 2007 Prius still being all swank and fun and comfy and nice and 45mpg in 2017? Slim. How long does one of those hybrid motors last? I'm guessing NOT 500k miles. I could be wrong. If I am, so be it. But I buy cars that I expect to last me 250k before they need major work.

My 1995 Volvo 850 (bought for commuting because it gets 30mpg) currently has no exhaust. When I say no exhaust... the coupling between the exhaust manifold and the catalytic disintegrated. I haven't put on the new one yet because getting the manifold off involves plenty of PB Blaster and patience and perhaps the application of extreme heat. Also since the manifold is messed up, the O2 sensors are firing at full. So it's running ultra-rich. Running ultra-rich, and with NO EXHAUST, it passed emissions. It's louder than a Harley, and vibrates something awful, but BROKEN it passed Massachusetts emissions.

But a Prius doesn't? *snicker*

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Edit: I haven't even begun to discuss the Mini, which starts under $20k. Or the newer BMW's intended to be "budget" and have higher MPG, which will be available shortly.

Edit 2: And we haven't EVEN started to discuss maintenance costs. Do you have any idea how much it will cost to maintain a hybrid once it's past its "all-inclusive" warranty period? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!

[Jammrock]

The least expensive BMW costs about $5K more than the Prius.

You're thinking new, Gurm is thinking used.

[ZokesPro]

They could just do what BMW does - put a custom plug on the OBD2 sensor so that you HAVE to test it properly.

I'm not knocking the Prius, but it just seems that BMW/Mercedes/etc. have been down ALL these roads already.

I'll take the performance of a base-model 3-series with its 30+Mpg and ridiculous horsepower over the extra $15k I'd spend on an equivalent Prius. It's just a no-brainer. AND the 3-series will pass emissions. *snicker*

The least expensive BMW costs about $5K more than the Prius.

[Gurm]

They could just do what BMW does - put a custom plug on the OBD2 sensor so that you HAVE to test it properly.

I'm not knocking the Prius, but it just seems that BMW/Mercedes/etc. have been down ALL these roads already.

I'll take the performance of a base-model 3-series with its 30+Mpg and ridiculous horsepower over the extra $15k I'd spend on an equivalent Prius. It's just a no-brainer. AND the 3-series will pass emissions. *snicker*

[Brian Ellis]

I'm surprised that the Prius hasn't got a fixed 2500 rpm regime programmed into its software just for that purpose. It's just as important that its lambda and catpot are working as in any other car. An exemption isn't the real answer.