Michigan: silencers, suppressors and machine guns OK

[cjolley]

Repeating: The ends do not justify the means.

You are arguing with a guy who is a patriotic, revolutionary, conservative.
All at the same time.
Good luck.

You also conceded his point about the poor conservatives being reluctantly forced into name-calling by the mean old liberals.
Complete BS.

[UtwigMU]

But aren't those illegal firearms deaths, caused by crime.

In USA they have lower taxes and lesser social network, which results in higher crime. Think of it as a slider with trade-offs. On one side it's great for business and entrepreneurs, on the other it's bad for social security and crime rate is higher.

Thus since system is such there is also a need for people to do more for self protection, since state does less, so there is a need for gun ownership.

On the other hand in Europe you don't die of unemployment and thus crime rate is lower and there are less gun deaths.

But since social system is complex and each society has some inherent traits transplanting one system from another society doesn't quite work. If you were to ban guns, you'd have to introduce higher taxes (despite tea-party and constant moaning about taxes which are much higher than they were 50 years ago but still lower than most countries with comparable income) and more social net. This is not quite the principle on which USA was founded and it would take long time for society to change.

Another reason for higher crime rate might be mobility. In Europe people don't move as much as in USA and countries speaking same language are smaller. So people know each other more and maybe this is also contributing to lower crime rate.

Even if you ban guns like in Europe - criminals would still have guns. There is Mexican border, there is Canadian border, there are two coasts and also ability to manufacture. Ask yourself, if you really wanted, do you think you'd be able to connect with people (it takes about 3-7 contacts to connect with everyone in the country depending on size), who could sell you a weapon.


If you look at Switzerland: They have a lot of guns, men keep auto weapons from army at home and gun caused death rate is very low.

Also the 2nd amendment - I don't think it's totally unfounded. In most societies free people (lords, citizens) historically had the right to bear arms. Only people without freedom didn't have that right.


To add: Also I think some gun-nuts in USA are overdoing it. At least some don't appear to me like people I'd entrust with a weapons permit.

[Brian Ellis]

Repeating: The ends do not justify the means.

Not even in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

During the one-year study period, 88 649 firearm deaths were reported. Overall
firearm mortality rates are five to six times higher in HI and UMI countries in the
Americas (12.72) than in Europe (2.17), or Oceania (2.57) and 95 times higher
than in Asia (0.13). The rate of firearm deaths in the United States (14.24 per
100 000) exceeds that of its economic counterparts (1.76) eightfold and that of
UMI countries (9.69) by a factor of 1.5. Suicide and homicide contribute equally
to total firearm deaths in the US, but most firearm deaths are suicides (71%) in
HI countries and homicides (72%) in UMI countries.

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/2/214.full.pdf (HI = high income, UMI = upper middle income)

Doesn't that say it all?

[KRSESQ]

Repeating: The ends do not justify the means.

[Dr Mordrid]

Perhaps not, but conservatives finally learned after being called everything but baby-eaters, and most everything else including terrorists, that you don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

The left started it and now they're crying, but still they spout off like Jimmy Hoffa's kid did today in Detreoit saying of the Tea Party "Let's take these sons of bitches out...." as he was doing the intro for Obama's Labor Day speech. Street slang for killing someone.

Hypocrites.

[KRSESQ]

Alinsky has been the primary strategic source for the left since the 70's and less so for the right - at least until 2009 when the right decided to play from the lefts playbook. About time they got a taste of their own medicine.

That does not make it right.

The ends do not justify the means.

[Dr Mordrid]

Alinsky has been the primary strategic source for the left since the 70's and less so for the right - at least until 2009 when the right decided to play from the lefts playbook. About time they got a taste of their own medicine.

Gun deaths are still dwarfed by other types of causes, and the stats show 58-60% suicide, 35-38% homicide (both justified and not) and the rest accidental. 400 accidentals were kids, which is less than the 630 +/- people killed on bicycles.

[KRSESQ]

Right out of Saul Alinsky's Rules For Radicals**, the current Democrat playbook: if you can't win on the facts demean & ridicule your opponent.
**1971 Random House, ISBN 0-394-44341-1

I was going to just sit back and enjoy my popcorn but this comment blew me away. Doc, do you really believe that such a strategy is limited solely to the left wing? In the last couple of decades the right wing in this country has been employing exactly that strategy against anyone who dares oppose them. It's quite alarming how many people in this country have been gulled into believing that Obama and Pelosi want to lock their political opponents away in "FEMA camps" or euthanize Down's Syndrome sufferers or (insert atrocity of choice here). It's Hitler's "Big Lie" in spades.

It's exactly that which drove me away from the Republican party.

That having been said, more people in this country are killed by their own (or a loved one's) legally owned firearm than by an armed criminal.

[UtwigMU]

Considering recent results of US Army against insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq, I'd say they wouldn't fare so well (would not mow them down) against gun enthusiasts armed with class 3 auto weapons with silencers they shoot regularly.

[JTD]

Suppressors for use with varmint and other hunting rifles are somewhat common in Europe, and in some counties required to reduce noise pollution and protect the hearing of shooters and others, so why not here?

Well, it's not legal in Denmark.
Here you are only allowed to hunt with a max. of 2 bullets in the rifle, even if it can hold more than that.
Fully automtic weapons are not allowed, sem-automatic weapons are allowed (with only 2 bullets at a time).
Suppressors is not allowed.
Revolvers and pistols are not allowed for hunting.

[Evildead666]

oops, European Union, of course lol

[jms]

Nearly everyone here goes hunting with loud shotguns.
Helps those walking in the woods, and other areas, to know there are people shooting in proximity.
All firearms require permits.

Silencers are fully illegal (for civilians) afaik.

On the other hand, air pistols (maybe rifles) can be bought over the net by credit card, including silencers.

Also, Norway isn't part of Europe apparently (didn't know that).

http://www.touteleurope.eu/fr/organi...s-de-l-ue.html

Hehe, off course Norway is located in Europe, we're just not a member of the EU.

[Evildead666]

I took it to ask if the US Gov't one day instituted Marshall Law ( or Military rule) due to popular strikes/manifestations/riots (majority of population vs Gov't) would you agree with armed counter offensive (Gov't shoots first either by accident or orders) ?

I don't think the US would do it, since there are soooo many firearms in citizens hands, be it legally or otherwise.
Then again, the Military and Police do have access to weapons of mass carnage and crowd repression, and would be able to effectively mow down any insurgency.

[Dr Mordrid]

He asked if I was "suborning treason," which he knew would be taken as either insulting or ridicule and both of which are playground tactics worthy of a 10 year old. In the absence of substantive argument "grow up" was appropriate.

[Evildead666]

..
Right out of Saul Alinsky's Rules For Radicals**, the current Democrat playbook: if you can't win on the facts demean & ridicule your opponent. Grow up.
..

"Grow up".
If that isn't demeaning and ridiculing your opponent then I don't know what is.

He had a valid point, which wasn't demeaning or ridiculing.