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DV500 cheaper and more flexible then rt2000

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  • #31
    Trepidations...

    I don't think that it's unique to Matrox that marketing decisions to be first out of the gate on a new product ends up creating a field of de-facto beta testers who thought that they bought a finished product. When the original Rainbow Runner Studio was released (how long ago? It seems like yesterday!), it was full of bugs and problems. The fact is that this messageboard was born on the heels of those problems, and was originally called "This Idiot's Guide to the Rainbow Runner".

    It was the best part of a year after I purchased my original Rainbow Runner / Mystique220 before the drivers for this beast finally matured. In conjunction, however, Ulead's MediaStudio Pro, which was packaged with the RR-S, wasn't bug free for about the same time period. So, it wasn't just Matrox that slipped the marketing ploy into the game to make me a long suffering beta tester, when I only started out as an unsuspecting customer for a mere $300.

    By the time my RR-S had decent software, it was discontinued and superseded by the Marvel. I watched the whole nine yards of unsuspecting customers who purchased this product come screaming into this forum over the past year, posting the same kind of angry and frustrated messages that the previous batch of RR-S had posted the year before.

    Over on other message boards that focused on other NLE products, however, I saw the same or worse, throughout this past couple of years. My conclusion is that ALL these manufacturers are doing the same thing to be first out of the gate: releasing products that aren't fully developed, and funding the development with the product's sales.

    The one thing that strikes me about the Matrox products so far, however, is that aside from obvious defects in manufacturing that turned up here and there, those pieces of hardware that were in use when the software matured were fully usable and performing the way that people wanted them to perform. In other words, the problem with Matrox has been slow and weak software. The hardware, however, has been quite good, in the long run.

    Consequently, I expect that there will be some shortcomings in the first release of the RT2000, in that some buyers will be climbing the walls trying to figure out why the thing doesn't work. That's what I expect to happen with the first batch out the door. If this doesn't happen, and they manage to ship something that actually works in the first release, then I'll be pleasantly surprised.

    So far, in the past two years, the only NLE consumer/prosumer level product I've heard of that has actually accomplished this is the DVRaptor. I don't own one of those, however... I'm still pumping out video with my RR/Mystique220 at this time. And I'll continue to use what I've got until I see that the RT2000 is a mature enough product to make the transition.

    Personally, I don't think Matrox's past performance deserves a large customer base of eager buyers, chomping at the bit to obtain the RT2000 the instant it's released. It does warrant a large customer base that sits patiently, and waits for their typical, long term and methodical resolution of the inevitable software problems that this product will turn up by its unsuspecting beta testers. I, for one, have no desire to play that game with them a second time.

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    • #32
      Grigory,

      The DVxpress supports 4:2:2 MPEG2 editing. I believe the DVxplore is 4:2:0, but I just tried to verify this and was unable to find any reference to the chroma sampling for the DVxplore. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this

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      • #33
        Daddy Bay,

        I think I saw those numbers 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 in the pdf downloads from the C-cube site.

        Yep, just checked here they are.
        http://www.c-cube.com/products/DVxpressMX.pdf

        and
        http://www.c-cube.com/products/dvxplore.pdf

        Rob
        Rob

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        • #34
          Do you seriously expect to improve the quality of 4:1:1 (NTSC) or 4:2:0 (PAL) DV video with a compressor that can compress this data into 4:2:2 format?

          I have 4:2:0 source video, most of us have not better than plain DV25. I cannot seriously discuss ~1000$ boards with persons who have $20,000 4:2:2 video equipment. They are from another side of video editing field.

          In my reply, I just pointed what C-cube says in their documents: both chips use the same Mpeg2 compression algorithm in the area of DV25 video formats and datarates below 10mbps.
          So, my interest is only in buying cheap mpeg2-only compressing solution, for which both codecs seem to provide same results. I do not need to make 50 mbps Mpeg2 from 25 mbps DV. I do not need to make any mpeg2 with more than 8 mbps datarate, because even free software compressor can do excellent video at 6-7 mbps.
          So, we need to know how c-cube compression algorithm actually works in typical DVD domain. Compare DVMPEG and free bbmpeg compressors quality - you cannot come close to the bbmpeg quality with DVMPEG, even at very high datarate: here the algorithm shows its weakness. If C-cube chip can do its job properly, most of us will be happy with DVexplore.

          I will be glad to see the difference, if it exists.

          Grigory

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          • #35
            Of course you can't improve the quality of the input video, but you can maintain the quality in postproduction at 4:2:2. Sampling at 4:2:0, which interpolates the chrominance, results in picture degradation over multiple generations. If you are using the DVxpress/DVxplore simply as a transcoder from DV to MPEG2, then I think the chips should give the same results.

            It all comes down to what you are going to do with the video and the quality you are looking for.

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            • #36
              I just checked the Pinnacle web site. You can now get to the DV500 from the Products link. It confirms that you don't get MPEG2 editing:

              • Data Rate
              Two streams of DV data (25 Mbits per second per stream)

              • Digitization and Playback
              In real-time. 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL/SECAM) in 4:1:1 YUV (NTSC) or 4:2:0 YUV (PAL), true color

              • Export MPEG-2 IBP stream for DVD, interactive CD-ROMs and Internet delivery


              Duh! What did I expect from a DV500? Still, I was hoping it would match the RT2000 feature for feature.

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              • #37
                Having the same chipset means next to *nothing* in real terms.

                There is one major problem in determining exactly what features each card will offer based on what chipset is used: C-Cube is doing "module licensing".

                Basically the card manufacturer gets the basic features of each chipset for a "standard price"/card, but to include other more features in their products they pay extra by the feature. This can be cheap or very expensive.

                Because of this a product using a basic DVxplore might only cost $199 (say one with just MPEG-2) while another with more features will cost much more.

                This could also cause comparison weirdness as a DVxplore card with all the options might *appear* to be a better feature based choice than a DVxpress-MX25 with few options.

                It's also why these speculations are somewhat moot since nobody knows who has what options activated until both are uncovered at release time.

                Kinda like an old fashioned honeymoon ;-)

                Dr. Mordrid

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                • #38
                  Hi Filmgeek,

                  I told you I thought this was an interesting thread. I see what you are saying about the Matrox drivers and VTs, but that was (almost) my own point.

                  Firstly, the 3D drivers are Matrox bread and butter, so it's natural that this is where they are concentrating their efforts. VT development has to lag behind to some degree, because they are dependent on having stable PDs before they can develop (this is known as critical path development).

                  Secondly, if Matrox finds it difficult to keep VT development on track with a limited range of in-house overlay cards, think how much more difficult it would be if they (or any other development team) had to consider a multitude of overlay cards, with all the driver developments on each of those cards.

                  My final point is that (as has already been mentioned) the RT2K is a Matrox Video development, whereas the RR and Marvel products are produced by Matrox Graphics. Matrox Graphics core business is producing display adaptors for both business and gaming. The fact that they came up with the RR-S and Marvel products is what has led (most of) us to be here. They are the company that first came up with a quality/price compromise that meant that PC based video editing was within reach of the normal consumer.

                  Matrox Video division are low volume and high quality. These guys are one of the companies that put the oomph into Hollywood. I don't know if they have fully understood that the RT2K is gonna change their business so much, because at the price, I think they are going to get a lot more takers than they imagined. How this may affect their current service levels we will have to wait and see, but their reputation is extremely good.

                  Sheesh, is that enough for now ? Gives us something to discuss anyhow.

                  BTW, for all those that think that I'm a Matrox puppet, that ain't so.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I'll sum my stance and try to clear the air as much as I can. The DV500 with most certainly have fewer features than the RT2000, but which features are important to you and what will you use them for? For me,

                    I want realtime editing for content aquired primarily of digital cameras which will be imported via Lossless firewire. Both products deliver this feature equally.

                    I want the ability to capture analog video that can coexist in the editing environment with the native DV footage. Again, both do the trick. The DV500 uses the DV codec which is (you guys should all know this one) a fixed rate compression method. DV is ALWAYS 25mbits/sec. The quality of the analog to digital conversion (To address vikingman's point) will be the only differnce here and both matrox an pinnacle have demonstrated excellent quality in this regard with their other products. I want my analog video captured only at the highest quality so the ability of MPEG2 capture to do lower than 25mbit/sec does not interest me and is therefore of very little advantage. The function here is the same whether usin DV codec or MPEG2.

                    I want batch capture support for firewire capture through Premiere RT. To my knowledge, both card do this too. How well is unknown.

                    I want full speed preview on my computer screen as well as out to a Monitor. Thumbs up on both counts again.

                    I want MPEG2 export capability with software that will enable the creation a discs (CD or DVD) that can be played easily and reliably on other PCs. Here is the first place the function of these two products seem to differ. The RT2000 will export full IPB MPEG2 files using hardware compression at 3X realtime. Impressive! There is no mention of such acceration for the DV500, though export is listed (perhaps via software). The included software- minerva for DV500, sonic DVDit for RT2000- also differs. Minerva with the DV500 will create and self executable CD-R with the IPB MPEG2 stream and complete graphical interface that will play on its own in any MMX PC, no addition DVD player software or hardware required. This is very valuable if you want those MPEG2's to be viewed by more than you and your friends. MPEG2 playback is not yet an assumed feature of many PC's, even machines in a production environment, and player compatibility is eliminated with included decoder. This means MPEG2 Demo Reels can be a feasible reality with this software. Sonic DVDit, to my knowledge has no self-executing features for the discs it can author so the compatibility issues above can be a real problem in the real world. The speed of the RT2000 is awesome in this area but the use of this feature is dependent on what you need and I would prefer to go with the minerva software. RT2000 wins on the MPEG2 output speed but loses to the DV500 on usefulness of MPEG2 output via included software.

                    I would like the ability to upgrade my videocard and keep my editing features. While it may very well be possible to upgrade the RT2000 to Matrox's next card (which I have heard may include T&L), there is no guarentee and it will certainly no work with another companies videocard. Considering that the RT2000 uses a special version of the g400 with improved filtering and who know what other modifications to make this realtime effects gig fly, it seems unlikely from a support standpoint that there will be an upgrade. Plus, I'm currently content with my current videocard (a Viper 550 -don't laugh, I know it' hardly new) and would rather put the $300 difference in price between the two products toward a second processor or wait and put it toward the Geforce or whatever. If I'm gonna buy a new videocard, I want T&L for my lightwave modeling. The DV500 get the vote on this one.

                    While the comparison is close and the RT2000 does include more features, you pay an additional $300 for those features and lose the choice of a competing videocard in the process. For me, these two points are hard to overlook. For many of you, they may not be negatives at all. This isn't about who's "the best". As for driver support and stability with premiere, there's very little point in bushing the precedence of these two companies. They both have their ups and downs. I have used pinnacle DC30's without any trouble what so ever. I know people that use the matrox digisuite and love every minute of it. There's no current problems to argue over because the products aren't out yet. Canopus cards and the DC30 use overlay with other people's videocards without a problem. There's no reason to believe the DV500 will have problem and there's no proof it won't.

                    I the end, I just don't make enough money to pay an extra $300 bucks and dedicate my machine soley to NLE if I don't have to.

                    There, I think I'm done for now. Any questions?
                    Why is the word "monkey" so damn funny?

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