RT2000 vs DV500 marketing game heats up!

[jeff b]

It's fun to watch the marketing droids go at it, especially when their respective products haven't even hit the streets yet. Here's Matrox's official response to the Pinnacle offerings on why their unreleased product is better:
http://www.matrox.com/videoweb/endus...acle_dv500.htm

[Jan De Wever - Anyvision]

Well, indeed, they put together a nice comparison there. But what they didn't mention, and is very important, is that the DV500 is a DV native card, so does all what is said it can do in native DV and in real time. This, while the RT2000 can't do anything while in native DV editing mode! The RT2000 can only do RT stuff on MPEG2 captured files and while in MPEG2 editing mode! So, with the RT2000 you allways have to recompress to achieve RT, while the DV500 can do it in native DV.

I admit the DV500 is even more limited than the RT2000, but this makes it a whole different product!

Next week I'll see the RT2000 again, and be sure I'll ask the reps there their pants off! Probably the DV500 will be there too.

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Jan De Wever - Leuven, Belgium
Anyvision Media Services

[Elie]

Jan,

Your wrong about the RT2000 not being able to do real time effects in native DV.

You also posted this on the Adobe forum and again it's wrong.

The RT2000 can do effects in native DV in real time, it says it right on the Matrox web site.
When you have the chance to look at the card again, you'll see for your self.

To me the comparison on the Matrox web site says it all, The DV500 is not worth the money.

Regards,
Elie

[DrMordrid]

Elie is SPON ON THE MARK Jan.

How you came to these conclusions is a mystery to me, but after reading this misinformation all over the net it's about time you got called on it. Elie just beat me to it.

You have some serious research to do my man. The info you have is next to none.

Dr. Mordrid


[This message has been edited by DrMordrid (edited 11 November 1999).]

[Jan De Wever]

No, I'm not wrong.

I checked again on the Matrox site. It sais nowhere it can do native DV real time effects. Nowhere! If you can point me to a phrase somewehere there that would prove me wrong, please show it to me. I really would like to be wrong, but I'm 90% sure that I'm not.

The texts on the Matrox site are very clever written. But they never and nowhere say or claim that the RT2000 can do real time effects (to the analogue outputs or whatever) (!)when editing in native DV mode (!). They do say you can input DV in real time, without recompression, all true, but they DO NOT say you can edit these DV files, while staying in native DV with real time effects. It's just not possible.

The RT2000 uses the C-Cube DVXpress MX25 chip. The C-Cube site tells it exactly like it is: this chip can do 2 streams of MPEG2 video, each up to 25mbit/s and 1 DV stream, of 25mbit/s. DV is fixed at 25mbit/s, so that's it! Only 1 DV stream at a time by this chip, so no dual streams of native DV, so no real time effects while in DV editing mode. See http://www.c-cube.com/products/dvx_mx25.html and read the PDF file there!

I have this confirmed by an official Matrox dealer in Belgium. Next week I'm gonna look at it for my selfs at a trade fair in Brussels.

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Jan De Wever - Leuven, Belgium
Anyvision Media Services

[txiong]

Jan,

Then how do you know that DV500 is real time for DV? Both DV500 & RT2000 use the same c-cube DV chip. Am I wrong?

Tou

[DrMordrid]

Jan,

Realtime DVE's, transitions and organics are what Flex3D is for;

" All you really need to know about the revolutionary Matrox Flex 3D architecture is that it gives you broadcast-quality 2D/3D DVE and transitions in real time."

U missed that one, right? Read the rest;

http://www.matrox.com/videoweb/endus...s/rtflex3d.htm

Trust us.

Dr. Mordrid



[This message has been edited by DrMordrid (edited 11 November 1999).]

[This_Idiot]

I'm hoping to have a preview of the RT2000 next Tuesday at the Digital Media World exhibition in London.

If you have any specific questions , please let me know and I will see if I can get some answers.

If any other TIGgers are planning to attend, gimme a shout and maybe we can meet up

[Jan De Wever]

DrMordrid,

as I said, I hope I'm wrong, but again, never Matrox said that RT native DV effects editing will work. The link you're pointing me to is an explanation about how the effects engine works. But that's something very different from the C-Cube chipset.

To make RT effects work, you need an engine that gives 2 video streams at once. That's what the C-Cube chipset does: it delivers 2 streams of MPEG2 video at once to a codec that converts these to YUV uncompressed video. These 2 uncompressed YUV signals are sent to the effects system Matrox uses. That is the 3DFlex engine. This engine takes these 2 streams of video and applies it's effects to it. Twisting, curling, moving, ... all the programmers wish to let it do. But the 3DFlex engine only does the 3D effects and the organic 2D wipes. The C-Cube chipset does the basic dissolve and wipes itself, internally. That's it: the C-Cube chip is responsible for providing the 2 streams of video and soime basic wipes and sissolves.

Problem is: this C-Cube chip can only do 1 stream of DV and 2 streams of MPEG2. That is the limiting factor, and why I don't believe that the RT2000 cannot do RT in native DV.

How the DV500 does it, I don't know. But what I saw of it at IBC was really dissapointing. I'll know more next week. If I was wrong, I will apologize. But please, read the facts, not only what Matrox feeds you on their site.

The stuff on their site is very clever written. But they never mention that you need to choose between editing in native DV mode (non-RT, I'm affraid) and in MPEG2 mode (RT, but only to analogue). And that's their goal: let you believe it's native DV and RT, while there's a huge difference.

Again, I have as much facts as I can get:

- a dealer confirming me this
- the facts and figures from the C-Cube site (see the link in my previous posting)
- a Matrox beta tester at the DV-L list who doesn't deny this
- the fact that Matrox does not mention this at all, and keeps it's mouth shut about these different editing modes. All they say is true, but not complete.
- user reports from several trade shows.

What are your facts?

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Jan De Wever - Leuven, Belgium
Anyvision Media Services

[Haig]

Hi Jan,

You get realtime effects with The RT2000 in native DV.

You can check these URL's for your reference:
http://www.matrox.com/videoweb/endus...rtnativedv.htm
http://www.matrox.com/videoweb/endus.../dv_rt2000.htm

Haig


[This message has been edited by Haig (edited 11 November 1999).]

[Mark F]

Jan,
Would you care to interpret or translate the following, so I can understand how the RT2000 doean't do RT DV? :

"Matrox RT2000 provides native editing for all DV formats including Panasonic DVCPRO, Sony DVCAM, Sony Digital-8, and the consumer DV format used by Sony, JVC, Canon, Sharp and Panasonic. "

Mark F.



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OH NO, my retractable cup holder swallowed a CD

[This_Idiot]

Now then guys,

Everyone's got their own favourite hardware (seemingly at the moment hardware that isn't available). I daresay that there is plenty of room in the market for both products, and experience rather than scuttlebutt will tell us what the on-the-floor differences between the cards are.

I'd like to run comparative tests, but Pinnacle (or Miro before them) have never responded to my requests for access to review equipment.

Anyhow, can I pick up a couple of points from Jans post ?

"- a dealer confirming me this"
At this stage in the game, I would be surprised if dealers have any more info than the rest of us.

"- a Matrox beta tester at the DV-L list who doesn't deny this"

I'd like to know who this was (and I'm damned sure that Matrox would). I've talked with a few beta testers, and the one thing that I have learned is that they won't discuss anything currently under test. I don't know for sure who is beta testing the RT2K, but I have a good idea and would be amazed if any of them would make any comment whatsoever. Perhaps thats why they wouldn't deny anything....

[DrMordrid]

- a dealer confirming me this

Interesting since the dealer doesn't have one unless he's a beta site, and then he'd be risking his NDA talking to you about it.

- the facts and figures from the C-Cube site (see the link in my previous posting)

Not interesting. Those are generic features and don't account for any additional functionality manufacturers might build into their systems over and above C-Cubes basic capabilities. Remember these are codec chips, not all-in-one products.

- a Matrox beta tester at the DV-L list who doesn't deny this

If he is a beta then he is covered by an NDA and cannot deny or confirm beyond what Matrox has said in public.

- the fact that Matrox does not mention this at all, and keeps it's mouth shut about these different editing modes. All they say is true, but not complete.

The fact that Haig and the Matrox sites seem clear enough to most everyone else makes me wonder if you just don't want to understand it.

- user reports from several trade shows.

Uh Huh. Many of the "users" that have made forum statements to that affect have connections to Canopus and Pinnacle. A couple of them work for Pinnacle.

The RT2000 can do DVE effects in realtime in the DV codec. The RT2000 does NOT have to transcode DV into MPEG-2 on the timeline to do DVE's or anything else. You can work in EITHER format. The Pinnacle DC-1000 is the one that has that limitation.

Dr. Mordrid

[Jan De Wever]

Haig:

On these pages they never say they do real time effects on native DV files. They only say you can import DV files in real time, either to a DV AVI or an MPEG2 AVI. But they do not say in these pages, or that sentence that they do real time effects in native DV mode.

Mark:

They say any DV format (mini DV, DVCAM, D8, DVCPro) can be imported in real time. But that is not adding effects to these native DV files!

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Jan De Wever - Leuven, Belgium
Anyvision Media Services

[txiong]

Reading this link:
http://www.matrox.com/videoweb/endus.../dv_rt2000.htm

I got the sense that RT2000 can do real time both DV and MPEG-2 in CAPTURING & EDITING while outputing is NOT REALTIME.

Look at this heading on the link above, it says "Realtime DV and MPEG-2 Editing on Matrox RT2000". Matrox could be falsely advertising RT2000 if it could not do realtime DV editing. How it does it in realtime, I have no clue.