Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

$105 (USD) mini-DV capture/NLE package

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • $105 (USD) mini-DV capture/NLE package

    While waiting these past four months for Matrox to release the RT2000, and continuing to work with my Mystique220/RR-S, I’ve had occasion to consider picking up a cheap 1394 card to capture DV off my new Sony TRV900. I mean, I’ve had this mini-DV camcorder for almost three weeks, and no way to capture the stuff I’ve shot in DV… just analog MJPEG so far.

    At a show this weekend, I spotted a $105 (USD) 1394 card made by SIIG. This is the model NN-400P12, and is called 1394 DV-CAM KIT. It comes with a three port 1394 PCI card, a cable to plug into a camcorder 4 pin I-Link type port, and a CD-ROM with drivers and a copy of ULEAD VIDEOSTUDIO SE 3.0

    So, I picked one up and rushed home to install it into the computer.

    No problems. It installed easily, and appears to live with my Mystique220/RR-S without any problems.

    I was surprised to find that Windows98 SE already has the driver I needed for this card. I was also surprised to see that all I had to do was plug in the camcorder to the port and turn it on for Win98 SE to automatically install the camcorder as a device on the system. This was a hot plug in. When the camcorder’s not there, the device uninstalls. When the camcorder shows up, the device installs. WAY too cool for me to handle immediately!

    I’d have to say that anyone who hasn’t gone to mini-DV because of budget restrictions can go with this card and be able to capture, edit, and output DV back to the camcorder, along with any other on-line codec for distribution on the net.

    I’m actually quite impressed with this package, because of the price. You can also get this card without VIDEOSTUDIO for around $80 (USD), but for the twenty extra bucks it seems pointless not to get the software, too.

    Other people have reviewed VIDEOSTUDIO, so I won’t offer more than a few words about it. After having used the full versions of MediaStudio Pro for about two years, I first found this software to be a little perplexing. But, like any new software that I might want to do a LOT with, it took a few hours of usage to get the hang of it. (I was reminded of the PLAY’s software interface for the SNAPPY, when I ran it the first time.) The UI has a pretty 3D, rounded edge look that seems to say, “I’m for NEWBIES!!!” And that it is. Anyone getting into NLE with a mini-DV camcorder for the first time will find this affordable package to be the most painless path to producing video projects that will actually look good.

    I captured a lot of stuff that I’ve shot over the past three weeks, and found it to be effortless. I also checked to see if I could capture a single file over 2GIG, and ended up with a file that was 3,646,920 bytes! It played back just fine! Gosh! The other pleasant surprise for capturing was that I can actually run the camcorder from buttons in the VIDEOSTUDIO program. I mean, this is just SO nice!

    As far as how the codec will run on any other software you might have, I tried to do some captures using AVI_IO. It saw the codec, and it saw the interface, but it choked and locked up the computer when I tried to use it. MSP, of course, isn’t ready for prime time on DV, so it doesn’t recognize the files captured by the VIDEOSTUDIO interface. The MSP VIDCAP program also sees the new codec and interface, but like AVI_IO, it choked and puked when I tried to actually do anything with it.

    VIDEOSTUDIO, on the other hand, recognizes all the stuff that I can produce on MSP, so I can import anything that has come out of that. I succeeded in rendering one clip from DV to Matrox MJPEG in VIDEOSTUDIO, and it played out fine to the TV OUT on my RR. The only problem there is that the DV captures are 720x480, so the sides got cropped. The second time I tried this, I got an error message saying that the codec wouldn’t support 704x480. Hmmmm. Well, it isn’t anything that I’m going to use anytime soon, so I’m not really worried about it.

    Sometime early next year, MSP 6.0 is supposed to ship, so this little $100 package would be a really viable route for anyone who currently owns and runs the RR-S and wants to start moving into mini-DV. Others have apparently put the ADAPTEC 8940 or 8945 into systems with RR-G’s or Marvel’s, so I’m assuming that this card will be just as unobtrusive on systems with those setups, too. The thing is, after all, just a 1394 port and a codec.

    Check out the card at: http://www.siig.com/1394/1394.html

    I fished around and found this vendor on the net for the same price I paid: http://www.insight.com/cgi-bin/bp/13...p&d=SII1014793


  • #2
    Hey thx for the info.
    Since i'm short of cash and i really want to get into the DV editing business this was very good news.

    BTW: Why are u refering to "mini"DV instead of DV ? Doesnt it work on "all" dv systems since they all use ieee1394 standard?

    How's the speed on the dv codec on the package? If i allready have a speedy computer will the extra 1000$ pricetag on the rt2000 og dv500 be worth it if i dont need realtime rendering? Is the quality the same?

    THX

    Dragg

    Comment


    • #3
      Since the only thing I have here to vouch for on this card is a mini-DV format camcorder, I have no idea whether the pro level DV format will work on it, since the data rate is double that of mini-DV.

      I also have no idea how this inexpensive solution is going to compare to the RT2000 or the DV500, or even the DVRaptor, since I have no experience with capturing or editing in the DV format prior to this weekend.

      I believe that the resolution/quality of all these systems will be consistent across the board, since the mini-DV format is a fixed data rate that won't change, no matter how much you pay for the NLE equipment. What we'll be paying extra for will be features and speed, some or all of which I know I want to have badly enough to cough up that kind of money.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hmm..I hope they support it in win2k.

        BTW : Have u tested the speed of the dv rendering ? Is it fast?

        Dragg

        Comment


        • #5
          *Lots* of people who have bought
          these newer SIIG and ADS Pyro "Type 1"
          DV video boards have run into problems
          with sending their edited video back
          to their camcorders. Are you having
          no troubles in this regard?

          Also... because these newer boards only
          capture "type 1" DV video, they can't be
          used with current versions of Adobe Premiere
          and Ulead MediaStudio Pro.

          But you're right... the new MediaStudio Pro
          version 6 will be able to work with Type 1
          DV.

          Adobe Premiere 6 will follow in the
          summer of next year and will also be
          able to work with it.

          Comment


          • #6

            Jeff, I gotta ask...

            Any EVIL FRAMES yet ??!!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              Jerrold,

              Do you mean these cards cannot produce avi files for editing with MSPRO or Premiere?

              So, all owners are tied to some "newer" video format?

              Grigory

              Comment


              • #8

                Jeff, I also gotta ask a couple of other questions...

                I'm interested in how you are able to monitor your video captures. In your current set-up, when you are supplying a digital signal to the SIIG card, do you still have the ability to see your inputted video signal on a TV monitor through the RR-S? Or does ALL viewing (capture and playback) of a digital signal as an analog image on a TV now have to come directly from the DV camcorder?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Patrick: no EVIL FRAMES yet...
                  And, yes, there is only the camcorder available to convert the DV stream back to analog for viewing on a TV or recording onto an analog tape.

                  Grigory: MSP won't handle the .avi files created by VIDEOSTUDIO with the DV codec. It can convert them to an analog codec installed on the machine, but of course, what's the point of that? MSP VIDCAP is also unable to handle the codec.

                  I've found that Jerry is partially right about the output back to the camcorder. It isn't the hardware in this case, however. I can play back an unchanged captured clip and it's 100% fine back into the camcorder. Unfortunately, ULEAD's VIDEOSTUDIO rendering engine leaves a slight bit to be desired. One thing that's a problem is that the audio codec can't be set to render out a clip at the same (32k 16bit PCM) data rate as the one that it captures. It comes up "audio codec unavailable" or something like that. If I choose a lower data rate, it also will give the same error message. However, it will accept any data rate available for the audio if I also select 'TYPE 2' in the 'configure' dialog box for the video codec output options.

                  Nonetheless, I've yet to hit upon the right capture and playback properties to yield a perfectly smooth playback into the camcorder via I-Link on a rendered clip. Since a raw captured clip DOES go back to the camcorder without a flaw, it's got to be VIDEOSTUDIO's rendering options that limit this. What I get on rendered clips back into the camcorder is video that isn't perfectly smooth, as if the stream needs to be drop frame, but is going out frame based, or something along those lines. This happens no matter whether I set to FRAME A, FRAME B, or FRAME BASED on my rendering options.

                  Another drawback to VIDEOSTUDIO is that there is no cutlist playback, the way there is in MSP. Consequently, .avi clips and projects that are going back out the I-Link line are limited to what appears now to be a 4gig limit. (I was happy to see the 2gig limit broken earlier, but then found a new 4gig limit...).

                  Again, the hardware is perfectly capable of streaming out a 1394 mini-DV audio/video clip without a problem, but VIDEOSTUDIO is apparently imperfect in rendering a clip to the exact same properties so far. I haven't upgraded to version 4.0, which may have addressed this problem, so if anyone can shed any light on this it would be interesting to me and anyone else who might want to go this route.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've seen literally dozens of posts about
                    these newer "Type 1" DV boards on the
                    rec.video.desktop newsgroup.

                    It isn't always VideoStudio that is the
                    problem... although you **do** need to
                    make sure you have the latest software
                    from both:

                    a) Ulead
                    b) ADS (or SIIG)

                    In reality, you need to make sure you
                    have the latest drivers from your board
                    manufacturer. ADS Technologies has posted
                    a new driver that some people say is working
                    well with VideoStudio 4.0. But not everybody is meeting with success... even
                    with the latest downloads.

                    In answer to Grigory's question, the
                    new Type 1 DV video is a Microsoft
                    creation... from Direct Show/WDM DV
                    capture capability built-in to Windows 98
                    and especially Windows 98SE. This very
                    well could eventually be **the** standard
                    for DV video. Microsoft is attempting
                    to set an OHCI standard.

                    Personally, I combed the newsgroups and
                    opted for the Canopus DV Raptor after
                    determining ... based on the posts ...
                    that I was willing to pay an extra 300
                    dollars if it meant flawless performance,
                    which is what I have.

                    For now... the main sub-$1,000 software
                    video editors are Adobe Premiere and
                    Ulead MediaStudio Pro and neither one
                    can handle Type One DV video. They both
                    accomodate Type Two DV video. Lots of
                    people have tried to work around this
                    limitation as VideoStudio actually has
                    a built-in mechanism for converting Type 1
                    to Type 2 DV... but they get a rude
                    awakening when they attempt to edit in
                    Premiere. Bottom line: It *still* doesn't work... even after such a conversion.

                    ADS has put a lot of documentation on their
                    Web site about this issue.

                    http://www.adstech.com/faq/pyro_qa_topic_1.html#_1_12

                    Personally, I don't believe these boards
                    are ready for primetime and that's why I
                    try to steer folks away from them unless
                    they test them first to be sure playback
                    to the camcorder can be achieved.

                    Then... there's the difficulty in overcoming the 2gb .avi file size... that's a whole
                    other story... another reason why I chose the Canopus DV Raptor.
                    http://www.canopuscorp.com/dvraptor/


                    [This message has been edited by Jerrold Jones (edited 07 December 1999).]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Jerrold,

                      I already have Raptor for 7 months, but often receive questions from my friends about those cheap DV solutions.
                      Now I understand better that they are NOT compatible with common video editors.

                      I'll better continue to give advise to wait and buy full-functional product like Raptor instead of semi-functional ones.

                      Grigory

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Jerry: Your advice is sound. The SIIG 1394 DV-CAM KIT is not a mature product out of the box. It is, however, the VIDEOSTUDIO rendering software that is limiting the quality of the edited clips back out to the camcorder. I haven't upgraded to VIDEOSTUDIO 4.0 yet, and I really don't know if this will resolve the problem.

                        It does export an unedited capture back out to the camcorder flawlessly, however, so it is definitely not the hardware that's causing the decrease in quality of rendered clips back out to the camcorder.

                        I'll spring for the additional $50 to upgrade to version 4.0, and post to this thread the results, but it might take a week or two (they only deliver the upgrade via UPS or Fedex... I can't download it).

                        Of course, with the upgrade, the $105 package becomes the $155 package...

                        The lack of cutlist playback is probably the most serious drawback of this package, though, and I don't think that changes with version 4.0, unless someone knows differently.

                        I still think that the advent of MSP 6.0 will put this package into a niche for people like me who have been running RR-S with MSP 5.2, since the card most likely will run on the upgraded MediaStudio. It's a very inexpensive upgrade path to DV for that niche. It also would be a good entry level card to NLE for newbies, but only if VIDEOSTUDIO 4.0 comes through with a decent improvement in the rendering engine.

                        As it stands, though, this package is still a decent bang for the buck, in terms of capture and conversion to on line content for newbies. It gets them in the door cheaply. Kinda like the way a lot of us got in the door with the original (and greatly flawed) Rainbow Runner, eh?

                        Of course, once RT2000 is out and running, I'll be getting one of those. The SIIG will go to a friend of mine who already decided that, even with this known limitation, it's just what he's looking for.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          And so the saga continues in this quest for the least expensive mini-DV NLE solution...

                          I saw a flyer in the local newspaper yesterday for Best Buy, showing MGI's VideoWaveIII bundled together with PhotoSuiteIII for $85 USD, so I ran right out and bought it.

                          Now we're talking functional!

                          VideoWaveIII captures, renders, and outputs back out 1394 to my Sony DV camcorder without a flaw. No glitches, no jerky playback, nice audio. I'm very impressed.

                          I expect to get my upgrade to version 4.0 of Ulead's VIDEOSTUDIO sometime before the next millenium, as long as UPS doesn't lose the package, and when that comes in I'll update on that in this thread.

                          Despite misgivings people may have about the current state of Type 1 1394/DV capture/edit/output software, I really couldn't believe that it would be impossible to get anywhere with mini-DV and a cheap 'firewire' 1394 card and some cheap software. I was disappointed that Ulead's VIDEOSTUDIO version 3.0, which came packaged with the SIIG 1394 DV-CAM Kit, failed to render mini-DV well enough to use back out to the camcorder. But I'll reserve judgement regarding Ulead until after I've checked out the upgrade to 4.0, and hopefully they have made it as easy as MGI's VideoWaveIII.

                          Oh yeah, and the bundled software from Best Buy had a little surprise inside: a $20 rebate for VideoWaveIII, and yet another $20 rebate for PhotoSuiteIII, so that's a pretty good bang for the buck at $45 USD, eh?

                          Of course, any way you look at this original $105 USD SIIG 1394 DV-CAM Kit, the version 3.0 software that comes with it isn't really a bargain, after all. The card can be bought without the software for $85 USD. It can then be used with VideoWaveIII for (at Best Buy this weekend, anyway) another $45 USD. Now we're up to a minimum of $130 USD for the mini-DV 1394 capture/edit/output solution for beginners. I don't think that's too bad at all!

                          I would dare to say that any 1394 based on the TI would work with MGI VideoWaveIII just as well. Please note, though, that the platform is Windows98 Second Edition, which has the drivers for the TI based 1394 port, and the DV Camcorder, built right in. I don't know how much of a hassle it might end up being with earlier versions of Windows.

                          Stay tuned for more info when Ulead VideoStudio ver4.0 arrives at my door...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Cewl..

                            It seems that all these vanilla TI based boards work with win2k too.

                            I've seen both the adstech and siig cards for 69$ without software & cable.

                            But are the software packages and drivers compatible with this "mode" 1 and 2 DV???

                            dragmore

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Dragmore: As I think I might be understanding it, Type 1 means a single data stream with audio and video mixed together, and Type 2 means two data streams with one for audio and one for video. I have no idea where Type 2 might be used within a mini-DV setup, since the 1394 data stream on mini-DV camcorders is audio and video mixed to together. I'm not really clear about what else it might mean, though. I do know that the VIDEOSTUDIO 3.0 which came with the SIIG card has the option to encode my DV clips as either Type 1 or Type 2, in a 'configure' dialog box that can be brought up when I'm ready to render anything with DV encoding. The trouble with VIDEOSTUDIO 3.0 is that I can't render out to DV with the right audio PCM frequency... it just isn't available on the list.

                              The VideoWaveIII software seems, after only using it a couple of hours to check it out, to be more intuitive in that it doesn't give me endless combinations of options when I want to render with DV encoding. It automatically rendered Type 1 with the same 32kHz 12 bit audio, 720x480 NTSC that I captured at. Consequently, where Ulead gave me endless options at render time, and no success, MGI gave me hardly any options, but a flawless render back out to the camcorder. It should be noted that, at render time, VideoWaveIII does have all the options you might want to play with for other codecs, but they're all greyed out when you choose to encode in mini-DV.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X