DV500 Complaint Rate

[jeff b]

During the first week of release, new users of the DV500 were fast and furious with highly negative postings to rec.video.desktop, et al. In the past week, however, these types of postings have all but disappeared. I've seen this phenomenon before with other NLE products, indicating that initial problems people have had were resolved. They hardly ever come back to post, because they're too busy making videos.

In previous bouts with product releases and negative postings, unresolved problems have been seen to continue to produce negative postings about the product for weeks, and sometimes months on end. Seeing such a dramatic drop in negative postings about the DV500 indicates that the large spate of initial problems people were having has been resolved. From the specifics that I've seen posted at the outset, I would also venture to say that the problems people had with DV500 were exactly in line with what Chris and others have said here about the kinds of incompatability issues and 'read the manual, knucklehead' items that come springing out of the woodwork whenever a new product comes out.

The most recent posts from last week seemed all to have swung completely into the positive for DV500, with maybe one or two exceptions from the inevitable small percentage.

It's clear that some systems and configurations may not work with DV500, but it's also clear that the card is robust enough to have shut up the overwhelming majority of complainers, once they figured out how to resolve their problem(s). All that in the course of a mere week says a lot for how good DV500 probably is.

[This_Idiot]

I'm glad that someone is keeping an eye on the NGs, I don't get much time any more.

I would imagine that now the users have learned which bits to plug where, and which order to install everything, they are probably busy being baffled by Prem RT

[jeff b]

Pinnacle support has been quite good for people posting to the rec.video.desktop newsgroup with problems regarding their DV500's, due to a fellow named Brian Goetz from Pinnacle. I did a search of his posts, and got 4+ pages (25 posts per page) before I stopped counting into November. In one post, he claims that the Pinnacle support line has, as of this week, finally gotten their support turnaround cycle under 24 hours for the first time since releasing the DV500.

Again, judging by the sheer volume of Brian's helpful posts to that newsgroup, and the coincident dramatic decrease in DV500 pissers and moaners in the last week or so, it looks like Pinnacle has scored a hit with the DV500.

I know that there are enough Pinnacle haters out there, due to an infamous and much commented upon lack of customer support in the past, to make their job of turning things around very difficult. Never having owned or used any Pinnacle products, and simply dissuaded by their reputation, I've nonetheless tended to be kinder in the past week, simply due to the dramatic drop in complaints lately on rec.video.desktop. It really has been like night and day.

[Jerry Jones]

I don't know... I'm still seeing
quite a few suspicious complaints.

I'd never buy a Pinnacle product
after watching the Studio 400 disaster
unfold on UseNet in addition to the
current carnage evident on the StudioDV
User Forum.

Plus... I continually visit the Canopus
forum where former DV300 owners tell
horror stories about Pinnacle that make
me shudder.

PC MAGAZINE's Jan Ozer always favors
Pinnacle in his reviews, but I don't trust
Jan's reviews in that regard.

I have the Canopus DV Raptor running on
two machines with a third DV Raptor on
order for a co-worker. Installation was
downright easy with both cards.

Performance is flawless.

Plus I favor MEDIASTUDIO PRO over
Premiere. With Smart Render, I don't
wait for any rendering except where
titles and transitions are concerned---
and even in that regard---I rarely have
to wait very long for renders with my
500Mhz Pentium III.

Today I demonstrated Smart Render to
a fellow who has the professional-level
FAST Video Machine. He was astonished
by the power of MEDIASTUDIO PRO with
Canopus DV Raptor.

Canopus DV Raptor will also be compatible
with the new MEDIASTUDIO PRO 6 to ship
at the end of February.

[jeff b]

...no arguments from me, Jerry!

[Elie]

Most of the problems I see with the DV500 is related to the type of video cards their using, whether it's a TNT or voodoo 3 etc.

Now that gives the RT2000 the edge for using the G400 to avoid conflicts.

Regards,
Elie


[This message has been edited by Elie (edited 22 January 2000).]

[This_Idiot]

Well to be fair Elie, the same doubts have been thrown at the DC30 for aeons. I referred to this in my DC30 review and concluded that while the DC30+ wasn't a beginners card, it was certainly worthwhile. Don't forget that DV500 users also have the option of using G400 units for overlay (although not the Flex edition) as well as GeForce and other units. Hopefully I'll be bringing some of these factors into play in reviews in the near future

[Elie]

Chris, How many people that want to buy the DV500 have a GEforce or G400 in their machines to get the compatibility they need??

Don't forget by the time they purchase the DV500 only to find out that thier video card doesn't work which will lead them to buy a compatible card, they will end up paying the same money if not more than what the RT2000 is worth with less features.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not biased here, just being practicle



------------------
Regards,
Elie
Your Network/Video Specialist

[Jerry Jones]

My doubts about Pinnacle Systems
began three years ago.

I bought Compaq's top of the line
PC after receiving an assurance from
a dealer that it could be configured
to work with the DC30+ by Pinnacle.

After installing the DC30+, I couldn't
get it to capture at even moderate
data rates.

There were lockups, blue screens of
death, and untold wasted hours.

I got Pinnacle's smart ass tech support
on the phone for several hours and couldn't
get anywhere. Nothing we tried worked. I
couldn't get any answers. It was just
"Some people can get them to work and
some people can't." Well--I reasoned--
if YOU in tech support can't get mine
to work then Heaven help those who don't
have your supposedly greater knowledge!

Week after week, it was the same misery.

I even called Compaq tech support and
PAID THEIR TECH SUPPORT FEE for
peripheral support. We spent hours
switching the card to different PCI slots,
rebooting, reloading Windows, vainly
seeking a solution.

I wrote detailed letters to Pinnacle and
Compaq and included a printout of my
system resources.

NO RESPONSE---even though I FedExed the
letters!

I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT!

Then came reports from literally hundreds
of others with IBM Aptivas and Packard
Bell Platinums. They couldn't get their
DC30+ cards to work either.

It wouldn't have been so bad if only
Pinnacle had agreed to post a warning
against trying to match these popular
RETAIL BRANDS of computers with the
DC30+. But there was nothing.

I wrote a letter to PC Magazine expressing
my disgust that their review of the DC30+
contained no advisory against RETAIL BRANDS
of computers. No response.

It turns out only a handful of industry
insiders KNEW FULL WELL that there were
disastrous incompatibilies between Compaq
computers, in particular, with not only
the Pinnacle DC30+, but also with the
FAST AV Master.

The more HONORABLE of these insiders
joined in spreading the word about the
problems and encouraged Pinnacle Systems
to respond to our pleas to post a meaningful
advisory concerning the Presario models.

Pinnacle resisted and resisted and resisted.
In fact, Pinnacle was the ONLY major
company without an incompatibility list.

TRUEVISION published one.
FAST published one.
DIGITAL PROCESSING SYSTEMS published one.

But we never gave up. We kept the UseNet
pressure right on Pinnacle and we ranted
and raved unceasingly.

FINALLY---we won!

Pinnacle came clean and posted the Web
site advisory against trying to match
the DC30+ with Presarios by Compaq OR
with Aptivas by IBM.

Then... after six months... I decided
to find out if my retailer would even
consider taking back my Presario. The
answer was YES.

But not without a price: I LOST
$1,500 because the retailer would
only refund 50 cents on the dollar.

WITH CANOPUS---IT WAS A DIFFERENT
STORY FROM THE BEGINNING. The
incompatibility warnings were there
from the start on the company Web site.

I researched those, studied UseNet reports
and bought the DV Raptor.

IT WORKED. FLAWLESSLY.

Anybody interested in testing my story
about Pinnacle---I would invite you to
post the question:

Anybody here like to compare the
performance of their DV Raptor against
the performance of the DV300 or the
DC30+????

You'll get an avalanche of responses
from former Pinnacle product users.

Don't take my word for it:
http://www.canopuscorp.com/bforum/bforum.mv

[Jerry Jones]

P.S. Note Pinnacle's DV500 Web site
has a list of compatible motherboards.
This is good. But I think you might
understand why--for me--it's a policy
that arrived a bit "late."

[jeff b]

After going through the ringer with Pinnacle like that, I can understand your position, Jerry!

You know that you're not alone, though, eh? Pinnacle has pissed off enough people to make it a gargantuan task for them to ever turn that around. I do think that they're making the effort, though, despite the 'proof of the pudding' demonstration by Canopus these past several months (ie- it CAN be done).

Pinnacle has a chance to redeem themselves with the DV500, and I see enough indications of their effort along those lines lately to cut them a little slack.

But, honestly, I probably wouldn't be that kind if I had had the same experience as you did with the DC30. The many disaffected former customers they have out here in NLE land, I'm sure, is making their efforts to handle customer problems with the DV500 a tough job. Nonetheless, the complaint rate is WAY down, isn't it? This indicates that they're not only making the effort, but that the product is probably a decent one. It's apparent that this sudden drop in NG pissing and moaning, also, means that once the initial bumbling is handled, it works fine. Otherwise, the NG pissing and moaning by DV500 users would be continuing, ad nauseum, the way it usually does with most all the low end stuff.

Now, if they had only put that kind of effort into handling customer problems in the past, then the sales volume of the DV500 probably would have been a LOT higher than it has been. And I don't think that they'll be winning back any disaffected former customers with the DV500, either, no matter how well it performs in the long run. So, they've done the irretrievable damage to their sales, which I'm sure makes many Pinnacle haters gloat.

If you've been burnt by Pinnacle in the past, I'd never expect you or anyone else to cut them any slack. However much it rankles, though, the DV500 does appear to be coming through the ringer with fairly good marks so far. It will be interesting to see how this stands up over the next few weeks and months...

[This_Idiot]

Hey Jerry, that's the best rant I've seen on the board for ages.

No I wasn't saying that any problems that the DC30+ might have (or have had in the past) could solely be attibuted to "beginners". What I actually said was that in my opinion the DC30+ is not a beginners card.

As you've pointed out, Pinnacle were not the only company to get their butt chewed by incompatabilities with many of the prime box builders. You left Matrox out of the list for some reason.... Also, the Compaq Presario and IBM Aptiva's were known to be pretty well incompatible with virtually any kind of upgrade you wished to make, from additional HDs to CD Roms, alternative video cards and so on. But that isn't an excuse.

What I was trying to discuss was the point that Jeff was making about the lack of complaints. If a product is a good product, let folks know it's a good product. If it's a dog, call it a dog. C'mon Jerry, you've hung around here long enough to know that I'm the first to publish problems and then nag the manufacturer to death publicly if necessary. Now whether I am just lucky, or whether the current DC30+ release (HW and SW) is more stable than previous versions I don't know. The review tells my impressions of a DC30+ and how I got on with it during a limited review period.

Elie, I just looked at the DV500 video card "compatibility" list, and it looks to be pretty incomplete, wouldn't you agree ? It doesn't even mention either the GeForce or G400 - both of which I know have been extensively used in retailer testing. At £600+ (sterling), it isn't the type of card that is going to appeal to users of older Pentium kit with S3 Virge or ATI WinCharger display cards - most are going to be based on reasonably modern machines that will be quite likely to contain one of the 4 cards mentioned.

I'm not trying to make any kind of excuse OR promotion of Pinnacle equipment. What I'm trying to do is to keep an open mind about ALL of the current options and discuss each of them on their merits (or lack of).

If you ever think that I'm unfairly making a plug for ANY manufacturer, please write and tell them - they might give me a commission !

[Elie]

I'll never think that about you Chris

Cheers,
Elie

[Jerry Jones]

Keep up the good work with those
reviews.

There's no doubt in my mind the DC30+
was a huge seller... a huge commercial
success... so it worked for an awful
lot of people.

But even the Iomega Buz worked for quite
a few people who had the right motherboard.
Believe it or not, the Buz was capable of
very high throughput when coupled with
a mobo that was compatible. The big
problem with the Buz was that it was
only compatible with a very narrow range
of components. Iomega did a poor job of
identifying those incompatible mobos...
and the purchasers wound up being the
beta testers.

I guess my ongoing reluctance has to do
with how the Pinnacle officials seemed--
at first--to embrace a corporate philosophy
of being #1 in SALES at all costs. I
sensed they were naturally reluctant to
discourage any possible sales by putting
any incompatibility warnings on the site.

In the end... they did the right thing.
So I probably shouldn't hold a grudge.

I hope the buyers of the DV500 have all
the success in the world. I sympathize
with how miserable it feels to spend a
chunk of money on NLE equipment and not
be able to produce anything worthwhile
due to technical problems. Perhaps the
DV500 will be relatively trouble-free.

Time will tell.

[Dr Alien]

I find it very interesting that many of you continue to bash the DV500 despite an overwelming number of people flat out praising the system, including myself. You are all right that Canopus is a fabulous company with great products and support. Good for them and you. They don't however have a hardware based card with dv and analog for under $1000. The Rex is awesome, but it's $1800 for the same abilities the DV500 has. As for video compatibility issues and the RT2000 being proven the better approach: Bull$hit! (with all due respect). I happen to be one of the many users with a Geforce and I am EXTREMELY glad I get to accelerate Lightwave AND edit on the same box, not to mention the incredible game performance. If you have an incompatible card and you want a g400, buy an RT2000. If you have an incompatible card and you want the latest 3D, get the DV500 and a Geforce. But the realtime 3d transitions you say. I like to produce video's class and motivated effects, not cheesy-ass diamond wipes and page curls so who really cares how fast an effect I (and no one really) will ever use.

Now, I'm sure the RT2000 will be an excellent product, just as the DV500 is an excellent product. It's a matter of needs and taste which one you buy but for Christ's sake give up the Pinnacle bashing and give them some credit for a great effort.

john