General confusion resulting from reading the posts in this forum

[AVminor]

Help!

While much has been written on this, I remain
highly confused about whether one is better off
with a Matrox Marvel G400-TV or a combo with a
Rainbow Runner G. And, frankly, if there
is any hope to get either of these working
in my system once I get them.

Like many others that post here, I also have an ABIT
motherboard and given what I have read in these
forums, I may be looking for trouble if I install
a Rainbow Runner. My power supply (230watts -- standard
with a high-end Inwin case) is pretty normal,
except that it does -5/0.3amps. (In all other cases
it is >0.5amps.) Because the BH-6 doesn't utilize
PCI slot 1 with an AGP card, there is no slot use
issue. I understand the benefits of Ulead vs. Avid.

What I don't fully understand are:

1) What one loses by not having the Ligos compression
with the Marvel. (The only thing that seems to be
missing other than the BOB).

2) What one loses if one does not have the BOB.

3) What the heat issues might be.

4) Whether the G400Max (which would, in this case, be
combined with a RR-G) is significantly better than the G400
for gaming use. (PC World Benchmarks show the G400Max to
be only a marginally better performer than the G400.)

5) What most normal people consider to be an acceptable
frame rate is for games. (I am not hardcore, but I do
not want to be cursing my computer whenever
I load up a game).

6) What happens when the G450 comes out. (I am assuming that
this might coincide with the upcoming Game Developers Conference
in March.) What does this do to the Marvel
versus Rainbow Runner G?

7) Why most people prefer the Matrox product over the Pinnacle DC10+,
which appears to be the ONLY viable competition at the under $400
price point.

8) Exactly what the ABIT and SoundBlaster compatibility issues are.

9) Why it seems that so many people in this forum seem to have
so much trouble with device driver issues? (This, more than
anyone else, scares people who have not yet bought into Matrox.)

My system is a Celeron 333a, ABIT BH6, 64MB RAM, 20.5G WD HDD,
Soundblaster Live(PCI), Acer Modem, I/OMagic 4x4x24 burner, Toshiba
8x DVD, Zip Drive, 3COM 905B-TX NIC, QuickCam USB.

Comments on any or all of these topics would be greatly appreciated.

I just want to get a decent system set up
where I can make videotapes and play a
few games.

THANKS!!!!!

[CableCat]

my MAVEL g400 sux, if i knew that the picture was mis replased & that the were no crack for macrovision(line in), I bought a MAVEL g200 or a rainbow runner

[This message has been edited by CableCat (edited 16 February 2000).]

[ScottV]

Sorry, I can't answer your questions. But what I can tell you is that you will get a very distorted picture if you just read what people post on forums.

Most people only tend to post when they have a problem. There are a large number of people with G200, G440 and RR combo's using various mobos etc. who have no problems at all and spend all their time actually making videos rather than posting to these forums.

I personally don't make many posts these days because my G200 Marvel is working better than I could ever have hoped for the money I paid for it.

I can make superb quality videos and I play all the latest games like Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament with no problems and perfectly adequate frame rates.

A lot of people on this forum also tend to experiment a lot. They install the new drivers as soon as they come out and they try a squeeze a little bit more performance out of their hardware.

Admittedly, there are certain known problems that Matrox are aware of and haven't yet fixed but I personally have not come across these. Certainly, take note of what people are saying as there's some really invaluable information posted here but also bear in mind there are a lot of happy but silent people out there as well.

Good luck.

[wkulecz]

Re DC10+ vs Marvel. The DC10+ is "cripple ware" that'll make you wish you'g waited and saved up for a DC30+ or got a Marvel instead.

From perusing rec.video.desktop, bad as my Matrox tech support experience has been, I'd wager Pinnacle's is worse.

I still would recommend the Marvel despite the problems because the competition is so weak. My major advice is buy it from a place that'll take it back if it fails to install and work correctly out of the box.

This gives Matrox negative feedback they *will* eventually listen to, and you get piece of mind even if you have to pay a bit extra to keep a reputable supplier in business.

Off-topic:
I went into ChipSmart, a local chain with some really low advertised prices. They have a big sign: "15% restocking fee on returns except for defective merchandise, system incompatability is not a defect"
I walked out. These guys deserve to go out of business. What a great scam, stock stuff that don't, work sell it "cheap" and extort 15% off the top from every sucker that's stupid enought to try it!

--wally.

[RBryant]

1) The Ligos Transcoder comes with Ulead Media Studio Pro 6.0 - which is the only program I would recommend to do your captures/edits with once you get an RR-G or Marvel. Not to mention the fact that there are other solutions besides Ligos'.

2) None. Since the Marvel is all one card, it only has one backplate to put inputs/outputs on. With a Max/RRG, you have two backplates, so the Max has two VGA-outs (one I used for the TV/VCR) and the RR-G has a composite line-in, s-video line-in, and 1/8th inch stereo line in and line out. Everything you need.

3) The Max/RRG combo definitely puts out a little more heat according to my measurements, but that is probably mainly my fault because I bought a Max specifically for the higher DAC because I run my desktop at 1800x1440x32x77Hz. You situation may be a little different.

4) Significantly is a subjective term, but I would say yes because you can overclock the Max as well... especially the newer ones.

5) Well, the eye sees at 30 fps, so above that is pointless... as long as the lowest point in a test is 30, then the whole thing will look smooth... but since the framerate fluctuates so much, it could dip below 30fps everyonce in a while. I play UT at 1152x864 and it seldom gets jerky for me...

6) The G450 will most likely be no different than the G400 SH, DH, or Max from the RR-G drivers' point of view. The addition of T&L should not affect the RR-G at all unless Matrox has done some other under-the-hood modifications.

7) I think people prefer Matrox becuase of the All-In-One-ness of the solution, a DC10 is a video capture only card... The marvel does 2d/3d/and capture/output just like a Max/RRG combo.

8) The only Abit board I ever had was a BH6 that I was running a Celeron 300 at 504 on with an SBLive!, a G200, and an RR-G and everything worked A-Ok for me. I captured, edited, output, play games, watch tv, etc.

9) Device driver issues always vary from person to person, and invariable coincide with the level of expertise of that person. Now, true, some things are just beyond the control of any user, but most are not. Take the power supply issue for example. It all boils down to whether are not people really want to use what they bought. If they do, then they will do what it takes to make it work. With the exception of being able to capture video under NT with an RR-G(which has been remedied now) I have never had a show-stopper of a problem with my G200/RRG or my Max/RRG combo. I capture in MJPEG, MPEG1, MPEG2, or MPEG4, I even capture raw RGB and YUY2 when I want it to look real good, and all without problems. Macrovision is not a problem for me either, thanks to this forum. Making VCDs is an absolute sinch. I have no problems with my TV out, either.

I think what most people don't realize is that Matrox DOES test all of their stuff very thoroughly before they release any of it. As a software engineer, I know what that is like. I also now that you can't test for every combination of hardware/software out there. You can only work with a few "known" sets of values.

All I am saying is that you get what you pay for. Not just with Matrox, but with power supplies, cases, memory, chipsets, etc.

Ok, I'm done preaching. Sorry for the longwindedness of my post!

Garrett

[Brian Ellis]

Cable Cat

As you are obviously dissatisfied with your Marvel G400, let me make you an offer of 33% of what you paid for it, assuming you haven't buggered it up. This will give you the funds to start a savings plan for something that really sucks, like most of the competitors' offerings. The other 67% you can write off to experience.

If you are having problems with it, be more specific, giving your total h/w-s/w setup and let us help you get it working. The Marvel range is very good but, like all sophisticated material running at the limit of the possibilities of a PC, you must give it every chance if you wish to see it running well, which many here will tell you it can do. Often, it is something very simple that is needed to fix it, but no tirade can help us help you.

------------------
Brian (the terrible)

[CableCat]

I just installed the VT152 crack

now I can REC. really noise TV
(and rented VHS hehe)

I just hope that matrox will fix the mis place bug

and make som win2k capture driver

wenn these bugs are fixed, then MAVEL-g400 will be one of best all-in-one card

sorry being so angry, but there has past 2 month's and the bugs is still there.

[AVminor]

Garret:

No apologies are necessary for being so
thorough in your answer.

Let me explain why I raised so many points.

My first biggest concern was whether the product would work. I don't have infinite time to screw around with device drivers.

My second concern was whether I would really
hate the card from a gaming perspective due
to lack of smooth motion and if the G400 MAX really made that much of a difference.

My third was if I should just wait for the
G450, which is supposedly just around the
corner -- and just sit tight and do nothing
until then.

Pinnacle was brought up as an alternative only because if there was not good Matrox
solution from a 3D perspective, I would end
up going out and getting a GForce or 3dfx
card and getting the Pinnacle to go with it
-- thus getting the functionality that I
wanted. Does seem like you are locked into
Matrox when you get a Rainbow Runner.

Thanks again -- and to others who posted
replies here as well.

(Other comments/responses are welcome.)

[DrMordrid]

The limitations of a capture card being locked into one graphics card family pale next to those of trying to make a capture card work with multiple brands and types of display adapters.

Just ask a Pinnacle customer about platform compatability problems sometime, especially those who have bought the DV500. Reading their posts is almost painful.

Dr. Mordrid

[Gandalf]

hi

as far as i know the Marvel g400 is
only available with 16mb Videoram,
looks enough, but if you want to use
DualHead, each Monitor has only 8meg,
so: no high-res-high-colour, or reboot
a lot to turn dh on/off

*_*

[pederbc]

I've lived a terrible 1,5 year life with the Iomega BUZ and recently bought the G400 Marvel. Works GREAT! Remember these things are still toys compared to what the pro's are using...

[This_Idiot]

Well a lot of folks are happy with their DV500's too. We'll have to wait and see if the same is true for RT2000.

But that's getting away from the original question. The DC10 basically works on the same chipset as the RR (whether -S or -G variety), as does the DC30+. Obviously implementation varies between all of the cards. Possibly because of the fact that RR is tied into a specific Matrox display card (or cards), it tends to be easier to setup for the majority of folks (complaints here notwithstanding). This site hasn't got overwhelmed with Miro/Pinnacle complaints yet , but they do exist in quantity !

I can't personally find a rationale for spending more on a DC10 than a complete G400 + G-RR (or G400 Marvel), but others have found that it works for them. So what can be said ? Users of both solutions have had problems, obviously the silent majority don't bother to complain.

Your best course is to try and see both solutions in action.