RT2000, DV500: complete waste of time and money.

[Patrick]

Interesting post, Jeff. I'm sure that it's gonna get a few people thinking!

[jeff b]

RT2000, DV500: complete waste of time and money.

I'm glad that the RT2000 didn't come out for six months, because then I never would have gotten antsy and experimented with a cheap IEEE-1394 card for Mini-DV. Instead of spending $1200 (USD) to get 1394 DV in and out of the computer, I only had to spend $89 for the card, and $200 for the upgrade to MSP6. The advantages, as I'm beginning to see them, include not being stuck with Adobe Premiere, and not having to deal with larger and more frustrating potential installation problems.

Those issues aside, what would the additional $800 have given me? Well, it appears that I wouldn't have to wait for new software in order to do timeline export of an entire project (greater than 20 minutes) back to the camcorder, but this issue will eventually be one that goes away. Another benefit from the additional $800 would be the ability to capture from and output to analog devices. I dispensed with that by picking up a Sony DVMC-DA1 for $300. Now I have a difference of $500 to contend with, and what advantages would I be getting for that additional money?

It seems to me that I would have ended up spending $500 additional dollars to save a couple of minutes of rendering time on certain transitions and effects. Quite frankly, I'm pretty amazed at how fast my project previews and file rendering is done in MSP6 with native DV files. Compared to the times involved with MJPEG, it's like night and day! An extra $500, everything else aside, just to save 5 or 10 minutes of rendering time on any given project seems to be, quite simply, not worth the money.

Finally, the last advantage of going the 'cheap' route for Mini-DV and 1394 is that I can crap up my system beyond any mess that I had previously been able to get away with using the old Mystique220/RR-S. The simplicity of IEEE-1394 is that all the compression and decompression is done outboard in the camcorder, so I don't have to be constantly 'tuning' my system to keep the old (or new) onboard hardware codec scheme happy. I'm free to try new video cards, and all the other garbage that I might be interested in.

IMHO, the RT2000 has turned out to be a dinosaur, right out of the box. Likewise, the DV500. Sure, they're nice and people really like getting such high quality DV out of them, but put them side by side with the cheap-o system and what's the final product going to look like? It's going to look EXACTLY THE SAME, because it's DV and there are no generational losses!

If RT2000 had gotten out of the gate six (or more) months ago, it would have been a winner. Today, however, it's just an overpriced dinosaur.

[dchip]

My knowlege of DV is limited, but, my knowledge of money is not. If I was running a DV business of some size then that 5-10 minutes saved on each project would have a dollar value to me and would add up very quickly to more revenue for my enterprise. As a consumer, though, I cannot see spending the extra cash to save such a small chunk of time. It's just play anyway.

Fortunately for Matrox there are plenty of commercial buyers who will appreciate the speed of the RT-2000 and the on-board effects and overall functionality, so the card definately has a market that will not soon get saturated and obviously many non-business users are excited about the cards too.

As a hobbyist I take comfort in your words Jeff. I too feel that all these costly things will soon be available in packages so inexpensive they will be a legal steal compared to what they cost now. My cautious steps into DV are the first time in a long time that I did not jump in headfirst and sink huge amounts of money into my "fun." I'm actully going to let it come to me this time, and I feel good about that.

[This message has been edited by dchip (edited 12 March 2000).]

[Elie]

I have to disagree with you on a couple of things there Jeff.

First, the RT2000 is not for everybody, it's targeted for corporate/events and maybe that someone who want's to take it a step further and produce weddings or TV shows.

You say why pay an extra $500 just to save 5-10 minutes of rendering, well like they say Jeff "time is money" so your basically saying all those people that spend $15,000 on NLE systems are idiots because they can get the same quality with an $85 DV capturing card and a Mjpeg card??
The RT2K provides quality 32bit real-time effects I'm pretty sure you know that already. I bet you if we put 2 systems side by side one with the RT2000 and one with an system you describe you will see a difference immediately.

However I agree with you, if your a hobbiest at video, dishing out $1200 US is a bit too much but I found the RT2000 to be an excellent product for what it offers and to tell you the truth, I'm having a ball with Premiere 5.1c it's been stable with a heck of alot of short cuts that used to take me hours to acomplish with Ulead 5.2.

Premiere RT's stability is based on how well the drivers are written for it, and the RT2000 is performing superbly, my system did not crash once so far. I've edited up to 1 hour and 37 minutes of video with prefect effects and audio video sync.

The RT2000 is definitely worth every penny in my opinion

Regards,
Elie

[jeff b]

(hee-hee!)... I kinda sorta knew that this thread would probably ruffle your feathers a bit, Elie! You're right about who the target market is, and that was really the motivation behind my starting this thread: to stave off the disappointment of spending all that money for something that probably isn't needed (or even wanted) at all. I think that many people would be lured to the RT2000 who not only shouldn't bother with it, but who would also be mightily disappointed at having spent all that money, in the long run.

In defense of the 'dinosaur', though, I certainly would have bought an RT2000 if Matrox had gotten the product out the door last autumn, when it would have been on the tail end of timely and innovative. As it stands now, the RT2000 and the DV500 are past the point where their technology would be 'cutting edge' or cleverly ahead of the times.

Anyone who could roughly be categorized as a casual user or hobbyist who hasn't jumped for DV yet would probably like to know about the cheaper alternatives that are now on the scene, and the kind of stuff that this type of thread would provoke from actual users. In the six months between Matrox's announcement in August and then finally shipping RT2000, the whole NLE market for DV has changed so drastically that it's actually a gut-wrenching shift in the most basic way that things can be done. That 'high end' prosumer market will probably continue to lure people in with the old paradigm of needing onboard hardware codecs for a while, yet. But the IEEE-1394 'low end' market is heating up so fast right now that it boggles the mind!

[jeff b]

Hey Elie! Check out my last post to the 'dropped frames in DV' thread, it takes a bit of the wind out of my sails in this thread, by golly!

[DaddyBay]

I am a hobbyist with an RT2000, and I am having the time of my life. For me it was worth every penny. I built a system following the Matrox recommendations (well almost, the Maxtor 7200RPM 40GB disks were not on their list), and the system just plain works without any problems whatsoever. It does everything I want without having to resort to third party solutions. I am able to devote all of my (limited) time to video editing. I love this thing.

Yes it is going to be obsolete soon. That is true of anything you put into your computer, but you have to buy at some point. All that matters to me is that the system will do what I need done for a few years. I researched for three years before deciding this was the system for me, and while I considered it a gamble when I ordered it (a 30-day money back guarantee made the gamble acceptable), the Matrox Video group really came through with the RT2000.

[jeff b]

Okay, the wind's back in my sails again, with great kudos to dgcom!

daddybay: I don't mean to imply that RT2000 will be obsolete anytime soon, but rather it's just not as hot and heavy on the cutting edge the way it could have been if Matrox had gotten it out when they first said they would. It's just a time to market issue that I think they really messed up on. Just a few short months delay, and the market has changed so drastically that RT2000 is surrounded by cheaper alternatives that simply were not there last August.

[Jack Hearn]

Jeff,

I took your advice, purchased a I/OMagic 1394 card, had the Media Pro 6.0 ugrade already, loaded the DV driver updates from the Ulead install disk. Cant get the video capture to work. What device or plug-in do you use? I thought version 6.0 had its own capture support for 1394 cards.

Jack

[jeff b]

Jack: I'm using Win98 SE, a SIIG card, and MSP6. I had to use the 24317up.exe file found on the MSP6 install disk (also available for download on the SIIG site), however, it was tricky:

Older versions of the files qdv.dll, qcap.dll, and msdv.sys were already on my system and the update wouldn't overwrite them. They need to be deleted first, then run the update.

I/O Magic 1394 card, eh? This is the first time I've ever heard of that one! As long as it's a TI based OHCI compliant 1394 card, though, it should work.

[wkulecz]

jeffb,

Are you using the TI drivers or the MS drivers.

I got a Pyro to play with. The Video Studio 4 that came with it just didnt't work under win98. Windows98SE or "gold" may really be a requirement for these cheap cards to work correctly, but I'm looking to dump win9x completely ASAP so I didn't persue it.

I installed it under Windows 2000 and after a minor install problem (my first and so far only PnP glitch under w2k!) it worked fine with superficial tests -- capture, trivial edit, mpeg1 and ASF mpeg4 outputs, and write back to tape, although I'd certainly not have noticed a 1 frame in 1000 problem like you were having. VS4 was too lame to waste much time with (something I'm very short of at the moment) so I'm waiting for MSPro6 and the chance to take a few days off to play with it.

Since the Pyro now includes MSPro6VE which is upgradable to the full version, its well worth the few extra $$ over the SIIG and other more generic cards. ADS is sending me a free upgrade since I had ordered mine before the new bundle was released.

--wally.

[dchip]

By the strangest coincidence today I saw a video at a corporate event that was done on of all things an RT2000. The reason I learned what hardware was involved in it is I made a point of asking the A/V folks after the event. The reason I asked is that the video had some amazing effects. I guess I was seeing all those things described on that Matrox page that compares the RT2000 to the DV500. I have to admit, the curls, fades, flyins, pip's, etc. were nothing short of wonderful. I was thinking then about coming back here to ask if software packages like MSP6 or Premiere can REALLY do these kind of amazing things with DV that is captured with any IEEE 1394 card? I don't mind the extra time it might take to render such effects, but, I decided today that I will insist on the classy kind of stuff I saw today if I am someday comparing a software solution to hardware like the RT2000. I guess I am kind of pumped up about the RT2000.. Still can't afford it but I have now seen firsthand what it can do.

[Jack Hearn]

Jeff,

Finally got everthing working with the I/O Magic card. Its called the "Inferno 400 Firewire". Funny, Magic doen't even show the card on their website.

My problem was with the drivers. Don't know what I did to fix it (three hours), but it works. I think I eventually ended up not using the I/O Magic supplied drivers but instead using the Windows 98 SE drivers, which gave me the "Microsoft DV CAM and VCR" plug in for Ulead.

I am really impressed with the ability to save the edited video as MPEG2, and the speed with which the conversion is accomplished.

Jack

[jeff b]

Wkulecz: I'm using the PCI OHCI compliant 1394 driver from Microsoft.

Jack: isn't it great to be able to do that for such a small price?

on the other hand...

dchip: It's a sure bet that putting an RT2000 into it's own dedicated system and using only the recommended hardware will definitely get you some production bonuses, et al, and it will probably be worth the money to those who will be using it professionally or semi-professionally. I only started this thread with the provocative title to get people to REALLY look at what their needs, budgets, etc. demand, rather than just springing out for the next 'neat thing'. Remember, you can buy a whole new computer for less than the cost of the RT2000... So, if all you're REALLY looking at doing is switching from editing analog with a Rainbow Runner to editing DV, then the 'capture card' you need is already built into the DV camcorder. All you need is the way to connect it: IEEE-1394.

[Jack Hearn]

I just did a side by side comparison using my og HI8 tape output using the "Sony DVMC-DA1 > Firewire > to Ulead Pro 6.0" path and then to the Marvel via the BOB. What a surprise! The MJPEG version looked better to me. Less artifacts etc., I'll have to research this to find out why.


Jack

I discovered that the DV format capture had a frame size of 320x240. So thats probably why the quality was off compared with the MJPEG capture. But, I couldn't find any switch in the ULEAD MSP 6.0 to give me the full DV format frame size. Must be a function of the Microsoft DV Cam VCR capture plugin.

Jack


[This message has been edited by Jack Hearn (edited 17 March 2000).]