Avid Cinema Q: Say it ain't so?

[jblanken]

I'm preparing to have a go at the breakout box now that my system seems to be stable. I don't want to reinvent the wheel, so I've been researching this forum (the last 100 days of it anyway), Avid's site, http://www.desktopvideoworld.com/, Ulead, AVI_IO, etc. so my ducks will be in line to attempt recording a 1 hour program in full NTSC resolution, editing it, and dumping the result to VCR. Well, I'm starting to feel like the apps that came with my G400-TV are going to be useless for this. Here's what I *think* I know:

For proper audio sync, minimum frame drops and no 2GB glitches, I can't record with PC-VCR, I'll have to get AVI_IO. Well, okay, that stinks, but $25 isn't going to bankrupt me.

But for editing the captured AVI, I can't use Avid Cinema, because it has a 2GB limit and won't support full NTSC resolution. So is this the unspoken reason that so many people on this forum are into Media Studio Pro?

I put together a system from scratch with the intent of editing video like I described above, and I thought the bundled apps would do the job, since these shortcomings are not described in the Matrox site or in the reviews I read before buying the Marvel. Now I don't have the budget to buy the Ulead product, it is a major investment, on top of the major investment in hardware I just made. I am getting a very sick feeling in my stomach, like I've been lead down the proverbial garden path. Someone please tell me there's a way out!

Thanks,

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Jeffrey Blankenship

[This_Idiot]

Hi Jeffrey,

I know that this game becomes frustrating (who better), but it really is a case of planning, persevering and talking things out with others who have been (or are going) down the same path.

On your comment about MSP, the reason that it is so widely used within the Matrox community is because it was supplied (in 2.5 form) with the original Rainbow Runner (or RR Studio as it eventually became known). The brilliant idea of the "all in one" solution presented by Matrox (the Marvel) introduced the Avid Cinema package, a development widely applauded since Avid have long been associated with top-end video editing solutions. The actuality of Cinema soon became apparent, with a largely derogatory voice. Personally, I applaud it's introduction as an excellent tool for those who can't/don't want to deal with heavyweight packages. Yes, I know that a lot of people will knock me down on that, but I've maintained the same stance since the product was introduced, and I still believe it fills a niche. In fact, if you start looking at the other lightweights currently being marketed you'll see that they are trying to fill the same niche, albeit with the hindsight of a further 18 months and a little more refinement (in some cases, VERY little)

I'd contest that serious amateur video editors shouldn't be thinking in terms of captures beyond a very few minutes anyway. The only reason for this that I can define is for folks that need to capture TV programs in entirety - in which case there are better tools available.

PC-VCR is PDG on audio sync unless you get large numbers of dropped frames, it will also allow captures of greater than 2K. Avid is certainly restricted in the output respect, which means that you have to select your AVI lengths fairly carefully.

[jblanken]

Good to hear from This_Idiot:

Hmmm, so it appears my understanding of the situation is accurate, I will be best served by chucking the bundled apps and going third-party, right from the start.

You wrote:
<
I'd contest that serious amateur video editors shouldn't be thinking in terms of captures beyond a very few minutes anyway. The only reason for this that I can define is for folks that need to capture TV programs in entirety - in which case there are better tools available.
>

I don't think I understand your perspective. Video tape has been in 2 hour format for decades. Television shows, sporting events, my lovemaking (doh!) are all measured in hours. This is the reason I got a 30 Gig drive. I'm not sure why serious amateur video editors wouldn't want to work within these parameters. I wouldn't debate whether you'd want to do it or not, for me whats important is whether its technically practical. I'm pretty sure desktop video is capable of outclassing two VCRs, which is what I currently use. Am I naive? Like, would rendering a 1-hour program never work, or never finish? ;^) I'd insist that my disappointment is legitimate, but dwelling on that won't get me anywhere.

You said there are better tools available. Well, lay 'em on me, baybeee! I'm ready!

So far it sounds like AVI_IO, and Ulead something-or-other version what-is-it, are the best choice. Maybe I should look for a cheap or free used copy? Especially since a new version was just released, someone might be generous with their old software. Which of the Ulead editors is right for me? I welcome your opinions!

Thanks,

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Jeffrey Blankenship

[Brian Ellis]

Chris

I think there is an apples and pears situation here. One of you is recording a complete 2+ hr TV show, to cut out the publicity, etc. The other is editing clips from a camera.

I have asked this question before without answer, but - from experience - I now have the answer. If editing camera footage, is it better to capture a whole length of tape and then edit out half of it or to do a pre-edit at capture and import just the parts likely to be useful in, say, 2 min snatches? My experience is the latter. It involves slightly more work but the advantages are a) less risk of dropped frames/out-of-synch sound; b) less usage of disk space; c) less need to defrag (because the various MJPEG files are sequential, whereas one big one seems to break up after a few 100 Mbs). Extrapolating this to long TV captures, I feel there may be problems with Marvel/RR to maintain the integrity of a big file, although this is something I have never done and not likely to do (I very rarely even record one on VHS).

As for Avid Cinema, I was never able to get it working properly on my system, anyway (it refused to accept sound), so I have used it exclusively with MSP 5/5.2 and now 6 ready for installation.

BTW, MSP 5VE was bundled with early Marvel G200s, which was how I got my original one. The Avid C was posted to me 3 months later.

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Brian (the terrible)

[This_Idiot]

Hi Guys,

I actually typed out my reply first thing this morning and then carelessly deleted the whole damned thing - at which point I gave up in disgust.

Basically I was making the same point as Brian has. For recording full TV shows, there are better tools than the RR, most of which record direct to MPEG using a soft codec. Editing using these tools is rudimentary to say the least.

For capturing and editing video, RR is the best bang-for-buck (or was until the advent of affordable DV and associated software). But one would normally (as Brian says) capture in short clips, probably even as short as individual "scenes" which tend to be in the order of 5-15 seconds. PC-VCR is perfectly adequate for this task (I got put off capturing from MSP early on 'cos it used to crash all the time).

Avid is a low-end easy-to-use tool, although some folk appear to have had problems making it work (although I haven't ever experienced this, and I've installed it over a dozen times in different machines/configurations).

Far better is MSPro, and you can get hold of a "lite" version of this fairly cheaply and easily. Whether the full version is worth the extra is a moot point - some folks swear by it, others don't use the extra failities enough to make it worthwhile.

Chris

[jblanken]

Guys, I am so confused. I've been trying to make sense of the scene for most of the day and it looks to me like I should get Ulead VideoStudio 4 (I can't afford even the upgrade price of MP6).

BTW, does VS4 upgrade *really* require a previous version on the disk? Seems like this wasn't needed in earlier versions.

But I can't tell if VS4 can capture using MJPEG hardware compression, it looks to me like it isn't listed, so I'd have to capture in some app that likes Matrox/MJPEG and can afterwards convert to MPEG(1 or 2? ugh, whats the difference?), which VS4 can edit. So I'd use maybe VirtualDub, not AVI_IO?

Remember, I'm looking for full-NTSC resolution and frame rate for a long capture, say an hour, so what I get looks like the equal to a SP-mode VCR->VCR dub. Anything less just isn't worth doing, IMHO.

Am I getting warm? I am so lost right now, and I just want to get busy, but I can't buy anything until I am reassured that I understand what I need in order to succeed.

Thanks again,

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Jeffrey Blankenship

[wkulecz]

I think your Marvel will do better quality than VHS-->VHS SP dub. My "best quality" Marvel captures from a video8 tape (only marginally better if at all, than SP VHS) when edited and written back to VHS tape at SP are very hard to tell from the original video8 played back from the camcorder. Given that all the garbage is now gone, they are much better to watch :-)

Using one of the real-time MPEG capture things in my experience is at best about SLP dub quality if you keep the data rate low enough that a 1 hr show fits on a CD-R. You'll also need a fast CPU, P-III 500 is about the minimum. MJPEG or DV is not the best input for MPEG encoding, get the Dutchman's YUV patch if you plan to do this or capture with a cheap Hauppauge BT878 card if you want these real-time MPEG captures. I think Virtual Dub (free) ot iframeEdit (free time limited demo) can edit out the comercials from MPEG streams, but you don't get "clean" cuts because of the MPEG predicted frames.

Video Studio4 is much more functional that Avid Cinema, but the user interface in in my opinion much worse. I'd suggest buying a Pyro, for about $100 you get a firewire card, cable, VS4 and MSPro6ve. IMHO, the MSPro6ve is alone worth the price of the Pyro package!
and it works fine with my G200 Marvel or cheap Hauppauge card on win2000.

--wally.

[jblanken]

Wally:

I'm starting to get a better understanding now. I'm tentatively thinking I don't want to mess with MPEG at all. The reason I thought I needed to go to that format was because Ulead doesn't mention MJPEG anywhere on their site as a supported file format. But it appears that MJPEG isn't a file format, its just a flavor of AVI file, am I correct? Therefore, *Studio is all I need for capture, editing, and output; the whole process end-to-end.

Though I don't need fire-wire (now), the price for the card + MSP is less than than the MSP6 upgrade, and roughly the same as VS4. But I'd be getting a better product, so I suppose this is the way to go.

Let me know if I'm right about being able to work in MJPEG end-to-end, without conversion, in MSP6. Do I see a light at the end of the tunnel?

Thanks for bearing with me,

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Jeffrey Blankenship

[This_Idiot]

I'm currently running VS4 in order to write a tutorial for errrrm (someone else).

If you're into DV then it has the advantage of being able to capture from both analogue and DV sources - in my case from a G200 Marvel using a VCR as source and from DV using a borrowed mini-DV camcorder.

However, the interface is designed for beginners in a similar manner to Avid (although more powerful). It doesn't stack up to either MSP or Premiere as an advanced product in terms of depth. It has to be said that none of the "consumer" (as opposed to "pro") Matrox capture cards are officially supported by Adobe for use with Premiere, (in fact the list of supported cards is damned slim), and that there are plenty of Premiere users out there that are struggling to get it working with Matrox equipment.

If you are staying in the analogue domain, you will do as well to stick to earlier versions of Ulead MSPro - 5.2 being the favourite. You DON'T need the full product unless you really want to stretch your braincells, the VE (Lite) version as supplied with G-RR is excellent. There are many posts to the forum advising on cheap sources of this product, especially in the States.

If I was in your shoes, that's the way that I would be aiming at this moment in time.