MSPro 6.0 slower than 5.2 ?

[Merv Wilson]

Is anyone else having as frustrating time editing with MSPro 6.0 Video Editor as I am. Everything on the timeline seems as if its on a 'go-slow' or 'work-to-rule'! Even with the source (the previously named scratchpad), window present on screen, the image takes an eternity to appear in both the preview window & the source. Touch/clicking the timeline to assess how a title looks overlaid on a movie clip - a wait of some 15 seconds is way too long. These problems were never apparent with MSPro 5.2. I wonder what has gone wrong. Even the rendering seems to take longer. And another thing, selecting a small section (blue-line) to preview - when I push the spacebar it either refuses to playback or comes up with the message, "Multiple Files Playback Error". uuugggghhhh!!

I saw this version 6.0 demoed (very ably) on the Bit UK stand at Video Forum back in February & was convinced that the additional modifications to 6.0 worthy enough to warrant purchase of this latest version. The demo computer had a Pentium III 600Mhz CPU whilst I have only an AMD K6-2 333Mhz but nevertheless I still do not understand why version 6.0 is so sluggish with my set-up. I could work very fast on an edit with 5.2.

Has anybody a suggestion or two to help here ? I'd be very grateful for any help from you experts out there.

Merv Wilson

My set up: AMD K6-2 333Mhz - AT p/s - Asus P5A-B Socket7 M/Board - Matrox Marvel G200 AGP VidCap/Graphics card 16Mb SDRAM - 192Mb of system RAM - 10.1Gb boot HD disk - 16.8Gb video HD disk - both IBM Deskstars. Win98SE. Creative CD-RW 4x2x24x. MediaStudioPro 6.0. Camcorder: Panasonic DX1E - 3xCCD, analogue in/out.

[wkulecz]

Make sure your ulead.ini (sorry I forget the exact name) has the same settings as it did for MSPro5.2 I think the 5.2 version is still in the downloads or idiots-guides section here.

One of the settings helps overcome the dmb1 codec initialization delay and as I recall 5.2 was pretty close to unusable without it.

--wally.

[This_Idiot]

Hi Merv,

I also saw the demo that BIT gave, and I was really limited to the time I had available, due to my train leaving PDQ. But the demo was as smooth as a babies bottom, and extremely quick.

BIT were using a software codec (they didn't say which one) with no hardware capture or accelerator onboard. They'd also only just received the software, so they hadn't had time to play with it (although one would expect that they had a "cheats" writeup on how to make it sing quickly).

It was bloody impressive wasn't it ?

[jeff b]

Although I never did try to tweak it, version 6.0 really did seem to be quite sluggish with Matrox MJPEG and my Rainbow Runner. I've since taken the RR out of my system, however, so I don't know what tweaks you might be able to do for it.

[jeff b]

...of course, the other side of the coin with MSP6 is that (compared to MJPEG with 5.2) when using DV it's incredibly faster, all around. I mean, none of the little pauses like before, and much faster rendering of transitions and effects. My conclusion was that if you wanted to do MJPEG with a Matrox card, version 5.2 was still better. But if you wanted to do DV with a 'generic' 1394 card, you need v6.

[This_Idiot]

Jeff, I think you might be right. I've still not got hold of a press copy of MSP6, but I'm hoping for something soon (why the hell do we hace to work like this ?)

Is it worth noting that the MSP6 interface is vastly different from previous versions, and that it actually resembles Premiere more than old MSP ? However, I still found it more intuitive than Premiere 6.1c (which can be bloody confusing at best)

[jeff b]

Actually, I wasn't terribly impressed with the 'new interface', as you can put all that stuff onto the VEditor window that way (if you like) with 5.2, so just because it comes up that way in version 6.0 really didn't make me go 'wow'. What I really got all my goose bumps from was being able to edit type 1 DV files! THAT was definitely worth the price of admission!

[jblanken]

I just got MSP6VE installed last night and started working with it. I did get a small project made and recorded to VHS. Having used only Avid Cinema, and not even that for more than a few days, I think it is pretty darned confusing, and I had some problems with it as well.
First, when the Source window isn't playing, its black, when I expect to see a still frame. Clicking the "advance one frame" button doesn't do anything, and clicking the "back one frame" button goes in two-frame steps.
Second, saving to videotape from the timeline doesn't appear to do anything, but saving to videotape from a file appears to work.
Third, the AVI file which I created (which was small) is not recognized as a valid file by AVI IO when I tried to play it there, though PC VCR played it alright, so where the fault is is not clear.
Fourth, as Merv said, hopping around in the timeline leads to long delays before anything happens. And I did see the "Multiple Files Playback Error" that Merv saw, but I'm not sure why.
Fifth, there is one preview mode that appears to run at half speed, which I can't figure out how to change its playback speed to anything else. Weird.
And I never did figure out what ripple editing does, I couldn't see anything happening like I expected no matter what setting I had chosen (none, single, multiple track).

Clearly I have a lot to learn, but my frustration makes me want to try VideoStudio 4 which is also in my bundle, or even go back to Avid Cinema, which really is fairly easy to work with despite its limited configurability and 2 Gig AVI limit. I had hoped to be able to get past the 2 Gig barrier with the Ulead products, but I have a lot of puzzles to solve with MSP6. I may have better luck using VideoStudio 4, but I feel like that's admitting that I'm too much of a novice for MSP6. Which maybe I am, but hey, lets face it, I have a major advantage from reading this forum. :^)

I'm just reporting my first impression here. As time permits, I'll be attacking these issues the way I would here at work as a SW Quality Engineer to discover whether my problems are due to my mistakes or not. And it takes time to RTFM. ;^)

------------------
Jeffrey Blankenship

[fluggo99]

Try the search engine. We've already solved #1, for instance.

Also, ripple editing is described in the manual It only applies when trimming and inserting clips.

And whaddaya mean by 'half speed?' The frame rate is lower than expected? Or the video actually plays twice as long as it should?

[This message has been edited by fluggo99 (edited 07 April 2000).]

[jblanken]

>Try the search engine. We've already solved #1, for instance.<

Hmmm, yes, I just read that and I'll try it ASAP. Twaek, tweak, tweak du jour. <-(in a singsong voice) I hope I don't have to rebuild my system anytime soon, I might forget to do one of these tweaks! ;^)

>Also, ripple editing is described in the manual It only applies when trimming and inserting clips.<

Yup, I freely admit I need to Read The Fragging Manual, but I tried to get by on just Help for the first round.

>And whaddaya mean by 'half speed?' The frame rate is lower than expected? Or the video actually plays twice as long as it should?<

The window pops up and in the title bar it actually says "0.5x" and runs the preview at half of normal speed. I'm sorry, I'll have to figure out which path I took to go down that alley, I wasn't taking notes. I just wrote a synopsis of my first 5 hours with the product, confirming its not as easy as Windows Solitaire... ;^)

I should point out my project was designed to show the same scene captured at full NTSC resolution and frame rate, with varying compression levels, with title shots in between, so I could see if anything but the best was usable. I'd be curious what your opinion is, I thought highest compression/lowest quality was much better than I expected, very useable for situations where you don't expect great quality. Medium was very good, I couldn't see anything but a subtle difference from lowest compression/best quality. Of course, this was a very amateurish test done around midnight, and I'd prefer to hear from anyone who's done more rigorous testing. I really did expect to see some bigger differences between medium and high quality, so I'm probably going to do more testing. It seems like capturing at full frame rate and resolution makes generally good quality compared to anything made by cutting back on these parameters. But this really should be discussed in a new, separate thread. Sorry!

[Jerry Jones]

I'm using Canopus DV Raptor and Ulead MediaStudio Pro 6 and I now have absolutely flawless performance.

At first, I was only running 96mb of ram and that was simply not enough to feed all of the programs I have packed onto my home computer.

I'm running:

a) Cakewalk Professional 8
b) Corel Draw
c) Corel Ventura Publisher
d) Ulead Cool 3D
e) Ulead PhotoImpact 5
f) Corel WordPerfect Office 2000
g) Adobe Premiere
h) Ulead MediaStudio Pro 6

etc.

With insufficient ram on my 233 Pentium MMX, I would open and close programs and after about an hour I would notice the icons on my desktop would switch. Then, on other occasions, I would try to shutdown and I would crash upon shutdown.

The remedy: 256mb of ram

This computer runs now as smooth as a baby's behind. I've been working heavily in Ulead MediaStudio Pro 6 and Adobe Premiere 5 and I haven't had *ANY* problems with stability.

I just can't take full advantage of the MPEG-2 features in Ulead with that slow of a processor, but I have plans to build a new system so I'll eventually get there.

In the meantime, I can say with assurance there are no problems with speed where Ulead MediaStudio Pro 6 are concerned if you use the Canopus DV Raptor.

a) Ulead's Preview Window works and works well with Canopus DV Raptor.

b) No audio problems

c) No scrubbing problems.

I've been having a lot of fun doing first hand comparisons between Ulead and Adobe and I'm coming to the following conclusion:

It's nice to have both.

Adobe Premiere 5: The downside is the program is not as intuitive as Ulead MediaStudio. There are lots of settings and adjustments that you absolutely have to find and set correctly at the outset or the program will be endlessly frustrating. I've not found a way to make the various open windows fit automatically in the available computer screen real estate like I can do using version 6 of Ulead MediaStudio.

Adobe Premiere FORCES you to study. And study hard. And do a lot of trial and error experimentation and reading of the instructions and rereading of the instructions.

Ulead MediaStudio does too, but to a lesser degree... in my opinion. The only exception might be Video Paint---where you indeed have to study hard in order to master some of the more complex features.

The advantage of Adobe Premiere 5.1c currently is in its integration with Canopus DV Raptor:

Specifically, you can load your clips into the timeline and scrub and INSTANTLY you get BOTH a computer monitor preview window and a full screen preview via Firewire to your external TV monitor. The Canopus Premiere fans rave about this unceasingly. However, even here there's a catch: When you scrub over fancy transitions, the previews on your computer monitor and on the external monitor do *not* show how the transitions will appear. In my experience so far, I am only allowed to see a straight cut edit.

So how do I get it to show me how the transition will appear? I have to "render" the transition first. THEN... Adobe Premiere will let me scrub to both the computer monitor and to the external TV monitor and let me see how the transition effect will appear.

In Premiere, you have two windows above your timeline. The first window is called the "Source" window and the second window is called the "Target" window.

In MediaStudio, the first window is the "Preview" Window and the second window is the "Source" window.

In Premiere, when I double click on a clip in the timeline, I get an instant playback of that clip in the Source window. It plays back instantly in both the Source window on the computer monitor and on the external TV monitor.

In MediaStudio, when I double click in the same way... I only get playback in the Source window on the computer monitor: No playback on the external TV monitor.

In MediaStudio, when I scrub along the timeline of Video Editor, I get instant preview on the computer monitor in the "Preview" window. But no preview is visible on the external TV monitor.

But... I *can* get a preview to both the computer monitor and the external TV monitor by simply doing a preview render. With the Canopus Smart Play plug-in installed, I hear the render take place for a few seconds... then Canopus Raptor Video window appears and floats over the MediaStudio timeline. The Canopus Raptor Video window features a slider and lots of VCR controls for play, pause, fast forward, reverse, etc. From this Raptor Video window, I control the playback of my preview: And it *DOES* display on the external TV monitor, showing me precisely how my effect, transition or title will appear.

So... in summary... both Premiere and Ulead work very, very well with Canopus DV Raptor and you can get your work done professionally with either non-linear editor.

Why do I still favor Ulead MediaStudio?? Because of the "extras." I could never let go of Video Paint and CG Infinity and Audio Editor. These, I believe, are essential components to a truly complete editor. In addition, Ulead have enhanced Video Editor with a lot of time-saving features and controls.

So... on balance... Adobe Premiere's slightly better integration on the timeline with Canopus DV Raptor falls short of selling me on the notion that Premiere is "Oh so much better" as some Premiere-advocates contend.

[fluggo99]

jblanken:

Ahh! The 1/2x isn't referring to the speed; it's referring to the frame size. MSP is in the middle of rendering the video ahead of time; once it's done preparing the video to be shown to you, it'll play it back at regular speed inside the preview window itself.

What you've been looking at is a window that monitors the rendering process. You'd see the same thing when doing File->Create->Video. 1/2x simply means that what you're seeing is half the size of what's actually being rendered.

[This message has been edited by fluggo99 (edited 08 April 2000).]