Announcement

**Sciascia** · 30 September 2001, 03:11

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the 450 series do not have MJPEG HW. They use SW for all compression, includig the MPEG compressin that they are designed for and have included. That is why i have clung to my Marvel G400 for so long now. I would like to have a little faster 3D (even though I rarely game), but nothing that has come out in the affordable (less than $400) for video capture can compare to the HW of the Marvel. I know that others have the Haupage cards and ATI's, and the new G450, but noe of them use HW compression (as far as I know). When I am editing I like to know that all of my CPU resources are not being sapped by the codec.

You can try different SW codecs like the PicVideo or Morgan MJPEG, but they are all SW. Good news is that you have the CPU horsepower to pull it off. Bad news is that they are still SW codecs. You may want to try switching toi MPEG2 for your capture/editing depending on the quality. I have yet to hear or see how good it looks with the G450e TV.

If you really want a card with HW compression (probably G400 Marvel TV), the best thing that you could do is look around to see if any online stores have them still, and check the auction sites. There might be a few in the Soapbox as well for sale. If you have a G450e TV for a trade, you might be able to pull it off. Last time that I checked prices at Matrox, the G400 Marvel was still more expensive than the G450e TV. so that flagged me into how much the HW had to do with the new card.

Good luck.

**Brian Ellis** · 30 September 2001, 23:33

To use software (de)compression with the MJPEG codecs, you may have to have large memory resources (say 256 Mb or more). However, there is a but. I assume you have DMA on your drives. If you use the Marvel to convert from the MJPEG to the more native MPEG in real time, you will need to do it from one master drive to a second master drive, otherwise the drive will thrash like hell and cannot keep up.

On the last project I did, I rendered from Marvel G-200 704x576 to:

MJPEG 704 x 576
MJPEG 352 x 288
MPEG-1 352 x 288
MPEG-2 352 x 288
Indeo 5.11 352 x 288

Naturally, the first was best quality with virtually no visible artifacts, even after editing with transitions, animation and titling, followed closely by the second. The other three (granted, much smaller file sizes) had little to choose between them for overall quality, possibly with a slight edge to the Indeo, but with small differences here and there, notably moiré effects on regular structured surfaces. To me, this proves that the hardware MJPEG of Marvel is, indeed, good and the advantage definitely shows when producing VHS tapes because of the lesser moiré artifacting than when recording from any of the other compressed formats. I've never used a software MJPEG, so cannot judge but my guess is that the quality should be equivalent for similar quality settings. The problem you describe is possibly because a good MJPEG file is typically 10 times larger than an MPEG-1 one, therefore requires that much more processing. This was the advantage of the hardware Marvels: it didn't rely on the computer to run the algorithms as it was all on the board.

**JTA** · 1 October 2001, 01:22

Hello Sciascoa, Brian,

thank you for your replies. Alas, you seem to confirm what I suspected : the Marvel G450 eTV graphics card does not seem to support any hardware compression.

This is totally contrary to what Matrox displays on it's graphics card page :
"The Marvel G450 eTV is ready to perform in all your entertainment and business applications for the Web, video, and TV. The most versatile all-in-one solution on the market, the Marvel G450 eTV is packed with features like timeshifting and third-generation DualHead, including eDualHead.

Matrox has taken everything great about the G450 and combined it with the video editing and TV features of the Rainbow Runner G"

All of the advantages of the Rainbow Runner series ???? Thank you again, Matrox.

About software compression :
sure, I have a Thunderbird 1.5GHz, ATA-3 disks with DMA enabeled, 512 megs of memory, but when I try to capture using ANY of the software compressors installed (Cinepack, Indeo, Picvideo MJPEG or DivX) the processor load jumps to 100% and 80% of all captured frames are LOST !
If I use NO compressor, I get VERY BIG capture files with a data stream of about 20Mbits/sec, which is too fast for my disks (which go up to 18Mbits/sec). Also, I hit the 2Mega-limit much sooner, meaning splitting the files and more lost frames in the process. Editing these huge files also comes close to impossible, and takes up to 10 times longer than before !

No, I really DO need some kind of compression. One thing, though, there is one software compressor which refuses to work, whatever I do : "Matrox YUY2". Now, since I capture using YUY2, I suppose THIS IS what I really need. Unfortunately, whenever I start my capture I immediately get the following error : "unable to initialize compressor".

Using the Matrox Video tools, I CAN capture full-screen, using MPEG-2, giving a data-stream of 2Mbits/sec, but I cannot EDIT the bloody thing !

Any ideas ? I'm desperate for a solution (buying a new card is NOT an option, given the price I payed for this one !)

**AndrewDV** · 1 October 2001, 05:32

Hi,

The loss of hardware compression is distressing. However, the 100% CPU load is kind of odd. With my 1.1GHz AMD, I can capture using YUY2 + PIC MJPEG (even with the Quality set to 20) with about 30-40% load. Are you getting the same problem when playing back Matrox MJPEG files using the PIC codec?

Do you mean MB/s or Mb/s (difference is bytes vs. bits)? With PIC MJPEG, capturing full frame and highest quality (Q=20) tends to give a rate of around 9-12MB/s. Lowering the quality rating drastically reduces the data rate.

Are you using YUY2 or RGB to capture? In general, RGB capture is more CPU intensive than YUY2.

What program are you using to capture video? If you use AVI_IO, the captures larger than the 2GB barrier are seamless (meaning no frame lost).

Editing MPEG files is not easily done. The Ulead software that came with the G450-eTV does help. You need to keep all settings consistent from start to finish. This avoids re-rendering of files.

**JTA** · 2 October 2001, 14:20

Hello AndrewDV,

what resolution are you using for your video captures ?

I need to capture at 704x576, 25 framse/sec (PAL). When I choose YUY2 as video format, this gives me a data stream of 20MBytes/sec, which is
1/ too fast for my disks to handle
2/ creates capture files which are way too big to handle

I have several software codecs installed, including the Pegasus MJPEG codecs which allow me to play back my old AVI files.
However, whenever I select any software compressor from the list, my cpu load quickly jumps to 100%, resulting in skipped frames. Quite frankly, given the amount of data to process, I'm not surprised.

Inall, I FEEL CHEATED ! Matrox claims this card has all of the video editing possibilities of the Rainbow Runner G series, but :
1/ you can't play back AVI files created on other rainbow runner cards
2/ Matrox doesn't support the MJPEG software codec
3/ I cannot capture any footage with this card using the resolution I've been using for the last 10 years !

I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED.

**AndrewDV** · 2 October 2001, 15:32

Hi,

There are many folks here that are right there with you. As an owner of a G400-TV, I am a bit let down. All said, I can still use its excellent TV-Out in my projects.

Getting to your question. Captures are 720x480 using YUY2 as the format and PIC MJPEG as the compression. The rate is what was stated before (9-12MB/s depending on footage). The quality set to 20.

20MB/s is definitely high. Even with Huffyuv, I do not get rates that high.

Just a FYI, I've been using Ulead MediaStudio Pro 6.5 for editing. It handles large files nicely.

Not being able to properly playback Matrox MJPEG files with the PIC codec is really odd. With a 1.5GHz processor and 512MB, those files should playback just fine.

I noticed you have an AMD CPU. Is it running on a VIA motherboard? If so, are you using the 4.32 4-in-1 drivers? Also, is ACPI turned on or off?

**Sciascia** · 2 October 2001, 16:39

AndrewDV
Are you running Win98 or Win2k? Also are you using any of the HW compression? I have Win2k running with the latest drivers plus the hacks for MJPEG HW and it works great. As a matter of fact it looks a little better than 98SE did. I used to have some nasty noise at the bottom of the picture that seems to be cropped now. The only problem that I have is that no matter what ulead32.ini settings I make (MSP6) I cannot get the timeline to stay up in the TV output after I stop playing or scrubbing. In Win98 it would keep the last frame up there and there was no delay at all. It does act properly with the source window though. Now there is a short lag, of course my new system is pretty quick.

Do you have the delay in the timeline (program monitor) with your setup?

**JTA** · 3 October 2001, 15:17

Hello Andrew,

I have no problem playing back old AVI files, using the Pegasus MJPEG codec, these play without any problem (some images seem to be more "jerky" than before, though)

My only problem is with video recording. My cpu is not fast enough to compress the data stream in real-time. The figure of 20MBytes/sec comes from the Video Format selection box - if you select YUY2 at 704x576x25 framse/sec, you see this data rate at the bottom of the screen.

For my video captures, I usually use Virtualdub, Vidvap32 or the video capture utility that comes with Ulead MedeaStudio 5.02.

My AMD processor IS on an Aopen motherboard with VIA chipset. DMA is turned on, and I'm using the latest 4-in-1 drivers (I've downloaded them from the Aopen webside). As for ACPI, this is turned off, as are all of the other power saving features.

It surprises me that you can capture full-screen AND use a software compressor at the same time. You talk of "20" so I suppose you also use the Pegasus codec. I've tried "8" (normal setting) and anything up to 20 - nothing works out for me.

I'll have a closer look at this, if it works for you, it SHOULD also work for me !

**AndrewDV** · 3 October 2001, 18:00

Hi,

Have you tried using AVI_IO? IMHO, it is the best capture program out there. Captures are done using PIC MJPEG with a quality setting of 20 and have no drops.

Are you using a RAID0 setup? I'm using a Promise FastTrack100 with 2-45GB IBM 75gxp's.

Sciascia, thanks for the advice. I'd like to get it working again.

**JTA** · 4 October 2001, 12:26

Yezz Yezz - it's working now !

Wat did I do ? Not a lot, actually :
1/ I installed the drivers for my Logitech trackball
2/ I ejected the Rainbow Runner software codec that didn't seem to work.

I don't see how new mouse drivers could make any difference, so I guess the culprit must have been item number 2 !

I can now capture full-screen PAL, with the Pegasus MJPEG software compressor on quality 20. The cpu load varies from 5 to 45%, and I get a compressed data-stream of about 8MByte/sec, which is quite acceptable ....

Thanks Andrew, without your mail I might not have looked any further.

Actually, this makes Matrox's case even worse :
- not only do they sell a "marvel" card which has none of the advantages of the other "marvel" cards
- they also install a software codec which not only DOES NOT WORK,
- but which also interferes with other software MJPEG codecs, thus crippling the system a second time !

Maybey it's because both codecs work on the MJPEG-type of compression : you can only have one of both active at the same time ?

I tried editing one of my old AVI files yesterday : loading & editing the file (a 3 minute video) took 2 minutes, creating a new output file took 45 MINUTES ! This was with both input & output files in the same format and resolution. This was completely unacceptable.

I re-edited the same file today : it now only took 4 minutes to create the output file. That's double the time I'm used too, but okay, it's acceptable.

It's a victory for me, though I feel it's not a sweet one. I still think Matrox is misleading it's customers on the new G450. Anyhow, we're back in business, and for the moment, that's all that counts.

A big thanks to everybode who helped me with this matter.

**AndrewDV** · 4 October 2001, 16:33

Hi,

Glad to hear it is working. 8MB/s is definitely in the normal range.

It is amazing what something as simple as a driver/codec change does....

If your interested in getting that Ligos plug-in working, the Matrox support staff has a forum off of the main site (http://www.matrox.com). The people that work there are fantastic.

**JTA** · 5 October 2001, 11:47

Okay, I'll have a look there.

Thanx again and happy editing

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marvel g450 etv - no MJPEG ?

marvel g450 etv - no MJPEG ?

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