ADS Pyro and Marvel G400? MJPEG to DV?

[JTurner]

Hi. Doc Mordrid reccommended the ADS Pyro on a previous thread, and I must say it looks like a great card for $99, assuming the plain vanilla version is the same as the $399 Pro version but without the software bundle. Prices are USD from Videoguys.

Anyways, I'm building myself a new system and I'd like to be still able to edit MJPEG clips that I have but would like to be able to have the option of outputting to DV. Can the Marvel G400 and ADS Pyro co-exist in the same system peacefully, and how does the DualHead work with them? Can I convert existing MJPEG clips to DV with little (or preferably no) quality loss and then output to a mini-DV cam? I noticed the ADS Pyro's resolution is 720x480 compared to the Marvel G400's 704x480. Won't that cause problems (bad quality conversion due to stretching)?

And for a long shot: By having both cards in the same system, is it possible to capture in DV format from an analog source (through the Marvel, over the PCI bus, through the ADS Pyro's codec, and then onto HD)?

Well, there's some food for thought. I'm basically asking because I've been eyeing an RT2000 but don't think I'll be able to spare the cash. Besides, the RT2000 doesn't do MJPEG, which I'd still like to do. Of course, there's always software codecs, which I've never considered before. But perhaps if I get an Athlon 750 or something...

Thanks for your comments.

-JT

[DrMordrid]

Hi,

Actually I recommended the Pyro Pro because of the software bundle.

Yes, they should work fine together. As for dualhead working with the G400, that isn't how plain DV cards work. You bring the video in throgh the Pyro, edit it, then send it back to the cam.

Previews are done by way of the preview window of your editor, not by way of the G400s second display. To record the video to a VHS you would dub it direct from the camera to the deck.

Some DV cams will pass the video through to their composite or S-Video ports from the IEEE-1394 port allowing a pseudo-vidout you could record on a VHS, but not all will do this.

To get a DV device that can display a preview to a composite video out (often with a composite video IN as well, which can be very handy) on the board you have to go more expensive. Examples are the Matrox RT-2000 ($1200), Canopus DV Raptor ($500) or the DV500 ($900).

Dr. Mordrid



[This message has been edited by DrMordrid (edited 17 May 2000).]

[JTurner]

Thanks for the synopsis, Doc.

I never realized there would be no preview during capture on the TV monitor. Does that mean that the color/brightness settings cannot be altered during capture for DV and must be applied as a filter later?

Basically, I don't yet own a DV camera (although I may be able to borrow one from time to time). What I'd like to do is output some MJPEG video that I have onto mini-DV tape. I'm aware that I'll lose quality in the conversion and that the mini-DV copy won't be any better (or worse) than a VHS copy output from the Marvel, but I need my video in mini-DV format. Can I do this easily with the proposed setup?

I'll check up on the Raptor a little... I like the RT2000 and DV500, but I don't want to lose MJPEG capability either...and PLEASE don't mention DigiSuite (WAY out of budget). Looks like I have some thinking to do... Isn't building a new computer fun?

-JT

[wkulecz]

There are no capture adjustments on DV over firewire because its just a digital data transfer.

What the camera captured is what you get.

I don't think a DV raptor or anything else has capture "adjustments" over firewire.

When I do a DV capture with my Pyro I get a "preview" (without audio) on the computer monitor, but I can get realtime with audio on an NTSC moniter by simply hooking up the camcorder's composite or SVHS analog video out and audio to the monitor or to a TV via my VCR line in. IMHO other than better drivers and codecs, the DV raptor's "analog loopback" and overlay is pretty useless if you want to use an external monitor or TV. OTOH if you don't want to have an NTSC or VCR and TV hooked up its damn near essential!

Or am I totally out to lunch on how to hook up a Raptor? Or are there some really lame DV camcorders out there? I only have the bottom of the line Sony D8 TR-7000 but its analog outputs (audio and video) are active on DV captures over firewire.

--wally.

[dchip]

I know where you're at, JT. I built my system last Fall but stayed with analog capture to start. I think I made some good choices (P3BF, Marvel G200, etc.) but now I am wanting digital capture too. I am taking a serious look at that Raptor-MSP6 combo. I just feel it might be the most bang for my limited bucks. I don't remember reading anything bad about the Canopus card. Plus, I can keep my trusty G200 for video card and TV viewing. I hope my decision will be good. I can only afford to do this once.

[DrMordrid]

You can't go wrong with the Raptor at that price. Canopus makes good stuff.

Dr. Mordrid

[dchip]

Thanks for the recommendation, Dr M. I think it will be a good choice too. Although I think $130 extra is rather high for the front patch bay for it, I will probably get it too.
Dr, do you know if my G200 can be used with the Raptor in that "dualhead" mode that I hear talked about in so much here? I want to continue putting my creations on VCD but that dualhead does sound interesting.

Also, I notice Raptor bundle can be MSP6, Premiere or EDIT DV.. I have heard nothing but good stuff about MSP6 and Premiere seems to be a bit stubborn with all but top-of-the-line hardware. It is EDIT DV I want to ask about. Pricier bundle, but does anyone know what it consists of. Is it a better package than the others? Can any of these packages do anything similar to those flyins and outs or page peels that RT2000 does? I would love to have graphics, titles and video flying on and off the screen. Cool stuff. I don't mind the rendering time if the effect turns out good but can I achieve this without taking out a second mortgage?

(JT, sorry to leech onto your post with my own agenda. It just seemed an opportune time to ask about this hardware purchase. Thanks)

[This message has been edited by dchip (edited 19 May 2000).]

[This message has been edited by dchip (edited 19 May 2000).]

[Meek]

Hi all. I am using G400 with ADS Pyro, and am reasonably happy with it. My DV cam does not support DV in (we poor Europeans) , so my option is to output to VHS/S-VHS through G400 dualhead feature, which works also for DV-material.

However, you are dependant on MS's DV codec for that, and currently, with my Athlon 500, it seems quite often fall to 25 fps only half of the fields rendering. (With the Mplayer 7 beta I do not seem to be able to achieve 50 fps rendering at all...)

But in any case, I seldom do any VHS transfers any more anyway. VCD and S-VCD sound like a better distribution media to me... once I get my Nero 5, that is.

Also, when you work with DV you most probably have to uncomress/decompress at least once anyway. The result codec does not have to be the same as the original. With the same compression ratio MPEG2 should at least in theory produce better results (remember mini-DV format is built for fast compression, it only uses YUV 4:1:1 format and has very trivial inter-frame compression).

M.

[JTurner]

Dchip: I don't consider you leeching at all. In fact, I'd like to learn a little about EditDV as well. But I'm wondering if the Raptor is really that much different from the Pyro. The Raptor can't capture or output to analog as far as I know -- it's just a passthrough. The Pyro doesn't have this passthrough, but you can always use the LCD on your camcorder or use the analog outs on the camcorder as a passthrough when capturing. Is there any other major difference between the Raptor and the Pyro?

Meek: I'm surprised to hear that DV video captured with your Pyro doesn't playback well on your system. I would have expected smooth playback on-screen. Is the choppy playback attributed to a software codec, and if so is this characteristic of all DV cards (ie Raptor) or just the Pyro? Would an Athlon 750 be enough to play the video smoothly?

-JT

[johnpr98]

Meek

I am surprised that you don't have smooth playback, What spec is your puter. Has it been optimised i.e. DMA enabled HD, vcache, Network server etc.

Also what camcorder fo you have as www.lynxdv.comdo a good deal on JVC & Sony.

Just a thought

johnpr98

Web page with ADS Pyro 1394 stills & info http://www.price98.freeserve.co.uk/

Forum with tips & info for the ADS Pyro & Ulead VS & MS Pro 6 http://pub9.ezboard.com/bpyro1394


[This message has been edited by johnpr98 (edited 23 May 2000).]

[Meek]

Hi all.

My playback is perfectly smooth. The setup is Athlon 500, 256 MB PC100 memory, 18 G UW IBM SCSI hard disk etc.etc.

You do not see anything being wrong unless you look carefully. At least with the previous MS codecs my PC sometimes would show DV at full resolution, but sometimes it would drop to half. When I looked with performance monitor, running full resolution the CPU usage was about 95-98 %. When it dropped to half resolution the usage was 30-40 %. But actually you probably do not see the difference on screen, but you see on TV out.

On mplayer 7 I have not even found the setting for half/full resolution, and I have not too carefully looked in the TV out picture... but to me it feels like half resolution. I better re-check when I get home.

By the way, when I overclocked my Athlon to 600, I would get stable DV at 720*576 interlaced 25 HZ, or 50 HZ, whatever. But I did not get a stable system... bah...

Anyway. I'll try again at home.

M.

[Meek]

OK, after some experimenting, after about 20 "unable to connect the upgrade server" messages, I managed to update the Mplayer 7 beta. Now I can get full frame decompression of DV source again. It is enabled by setting in "tools/options" DV size to "large".

When using that I get a steady 94 % CPU utilisation. If I drop "DV size" one step down the utilisation goes down to about 70 %.

It seems, with current MS drivers, that the limit for no-compromise DV playback to overlay (and thus DVD max) is very near my system.

M.

[dchip]

JT, I think the Raptor may just have a few bells and whistles that will come in handy down they road. Canopus has demonstrated its flexibilty by creating a patch kit that enables it to capture analog video (see other post). It is this kind upgradability I am looking for. The Pyro would be fine too but Canopus is so rock solid in its track record.

The software decision is another story. What I need to avoid is buying a package that has a steep learning curve. Intuitive, simple design is crucial. I know there will some learning necessary. I think MSP6's timeline design will prove the easiest to work with. I want to confirm that is will let me do some exciting things with my video, though. I am very interested in "page curls,"
"picture-in-picture" transitions and 3D-like text that flies on and off the screen. I know these are things associated with high-end software and real-time cards, but, I am willing to put up with some rendering time if the result is good.

I have been reading up on Boris FX which I think will piggyback with MSP and let me do some of this. I just don't know if my Win98SE will be robust enough for it. It seems to be an NT package mainly used by DV professionals. If it also works with Raptor, MSP6 and W98SE then I might spend the couple hundred extra to get it. Anyway, my research continues.

(sorry for the late response. I kicked myself out of the Forum by changing my email address, which changed my password etc. etc.)

[Grigory]

Hi,
My addition:
1. Canopus DV codec appears to be one of the best codec available. It is not working without Raptor for compression (it works in one version, but Veeeery slow).
2. Overlay preview is good when you use your mouse or keyboard for doing something on PC. It is really convenient to look at one screen instead of two... If you need to check the movie on TV or camcorder screen, you can do this, but there is no mouse or menu items anywhere

Grigory

[This_Idiot]

It's worth examining the different Raptor packages that are available, since it can be bought with either Ulead MSP6 or Premiere5.1 bundled. Also, the latest packaging includes Canopus own Raptor Edit. This appears to be a similar style product to VideoStudio, Computer Video mag reviewed it in the May issue and appeared to like it.

They also report that Digital Origins EditDV will be supporting the Raptor soon.