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**dchip** · 30 June 2002, 20:56

Some of the so-called "low-end" DVD-creation packages turn out great quality DVD's. I've been using Dazzle DVD Complete recently and getting quality just like you describe. It didn't come bundled, but, at $99, it has already paid for itself by taking the trial and error out of my DVD efforts. I like the motion-menus, and all-in-one jacket and jewel-case making system, too.

I almost jumped on Ulead DVD Workshop earlier this year, but someone (I think it was Brian Ellis) argued that some of the budget packages do almost as much for a lot less. He was right.

Jeff B, what kind of prices are you finding for blank media? I have been buying from www.taperesources.com but I'm always looking for other vendors.

**jeff b** · 1 July 2002, 05:16

The HP brand DVD+R was $8.99, and the +RW was $9.96 at the Circuit City in Nashua, New Hampshire last Thursday. So that makes it an okay place to rush out and grab a couple at a moment's notice, I suppose. They did have at least two other brands on their racks, and I think they may have had one of the +R's a little cheaper, but memory's not serving me well on that score.

I haven't done any search lately for better prices on the world wide waste (of time), however.

Jeff B

**dchip** · 1 July 2002, 09:20

I'm starting to do more DVD's on a commercial basis, where 5 or more dup's are requested. I'm buying at volume prices to increase the profit margin. I'm getting well known brand DVD-R for about $5 apiece but some unknown brands go for as low as $2. I haven't tried any of those real cheapo ones.

Congrats on your impulse buy. Always nice having a good DVD production tool.

**wkulecz** · 3 July 2002, 12:11

I'm currently testing the Phillips DVCR-985 standalone DVD+R/DVD+RW recorder. DVD+RW compatability in existing players is poor. ITs DVD+R seems to play glitch free in two players I have that glitch DVD-R but FF/REV is broke on one of them.

Menus/Chapters is a real PITA, can't see me keeping this thing since its really only useful for either one-of disks or tape like recordings without menus/chapters.

Its real time MPEG2 encoding from DV over 1394 is fabulous, if I can find a workaround for the menu/chapter creation hassles it'd be well worth the $995 I paid. Its on the web for <$800, but I figured it'd be a long shot that I'd be keeping it, so easy return is a must.

The Verbatum DVD+R disk I burned seems to have a bad spot -- it glitched while the "monitor during record" was in progress and all players glitch at that same 4:34 spot into the 1hr 18 min recording. Not seen any other glitches so far on any of the three players -- this is encouraging as two of them glitch DVD-R playback in non-repeatable spots.

jeff b,
Sonic MyDVD was bundled with the Pioneer A03 I tried back in October, it was horrible. Poor transcodes from DV, and it required one file per chapter. The MSP DVD plugin did much better, as did the DVD Movie Factory Trial. Jerry Jones has made me a test DVD-R with DVD Workshop which plays fine on two of these three players. So Far DVD+R looks better in that I can clearly blame either the disk or the recorder for this one repeatable glitch. If the disks all have bad spots or the recorder glitches its equally useless to me. But it might motivate me to try the HP DVD 200i. What version of MyDVD was in your bundle?

Bummer, I've seen another "bad spot" glitch while monitoring recording to the erased DVD+RW over 1394. I erased the first disk which I recorded using Canopus ADVC-100 DV to analog converter and didn't see anything like this during its recording. Perhaps recording over 1394 is not the way to go :-(
I've no problems with this system ouputting DV to analog or back to DV tape. I'll go back to the analog inputs of the DVCD to try and isolate if its the recorder/disk that's glitching or a new problem has developed with my system. I can watch the Canopus output on a second monitor while monitoring the DVCR recording -- if my system has developed a problem and is now glitching 1394 output I should see it on both monitors, if its the recorder or disk I'll only see it on one. Of course if its the DVCR 1394 input I'll not see any glitches while monitoring analog recording.

My goal here is to figure out what I can do with menus/chapters without going broke wasting DVD+R disks -- so far I'm not liking the possibilities :-( And not finding options to change much.

--wally.

**jeff b** · 4 July 2002, 07:07

Hi Wally,
The MyDVD I got is version 3.5 build 52902. The menus are smarmy and, as you say, one file per chapter, but I was kind of surprised that I got such easy and user friendly transcoding from mini-DV to DVD on this package. That it looked as good as it does, and that I can play it on one of the DVD players on "the list of players that work..." prompted me to post about this particular item. It was very painless.

Jeff B

**wkulecz** · 4 July 2002, 08:12

What list of "compatible players" did you use?

I've found lots of players on various compatability lists that glitch during DVD-R and DVD+RW playback. What's worse I've seen several situations where two instances of the same model player and one play fine the other glitches on the same disk. Thus I hesitate to make claims about brands and compatiblity, but I'll be quick to claim compatability is not what it should be and a long way from the makers claims of "most"!

--wally.

DVD+R/DVD+RW testing in progress with Phillips DVCD-985 standalone DVD recorder.

**Jerry Jones** · 4 July 2002, 17:14

I had hoped we could get "demos" of the three main contenders in the DVD stand alone recorder market *prior to buying* to spare us from any unknown and undocumented disappointments.

THREE CONTENDERS:

1. Panasonic DMR-E20: $700
2. Pioneer DVR-7000: $1,700 - $1,800
3. Philips DVCR 985: $1,000

The Panasonic DMR-E20 stand alone DVD recorders that we purchased have clearly been a disappointment in one key respect: DVD-R COMPATIBILITY.

Here's why:

Our computer guy initially bought two DVD-ROM computer drives that failed to read the DVD-R discs recorded in the Panasonic unit.

He's installed these drives into a Compaq Evo D500 tower computer near his cubicle.

I noted that neither of the first two DVD-ROM drives came with documentation confirming support for DVD-R discs.

So when they failed to read the DMR-E20-recorded DVD-R disc, I thought it was reasonable to assume those drives simply had not been designed to read DVD-R discs.

After he bought a third, DVS DVD-ROM drive, he noted that drive *also* failed to read the DVD-R discs recorded by the Panasonic DMR-E20.

At first, I leaned toward the notion something about Compaq machines or perhaps the installation of the drive or something driver-related might have gone awry.

But after checking and double-checking, it was clear that the DVS DVD-ROM drive was simply refusing to read the Panasonic DMR-E20-created disc even though the DVS documentation *confirms support for DVD-R discs.*

Adding to our suspicion was the fact that my home Panasonic LF-D311 produces DVD-R discs that work great even with the DVS DVD-ROM drive.

I confirmed that fact by recording my recent Public Works video to a DVD-R disc using my Panasonic LF-D311.

The Panasonic LF-D311-recorded disc plays fine in every computer drive and every stand alone player we've tested, including our computer guy's drive!!

So clearly Panasonic has screwed up as their stand alone DVD VCR doesn't match the performance of their DVD computer drive!

The Panasonic DMR-E20 produces DVD-R discs that are not as compatible as the DVD-R discs produced by the Panasonic LF-D311!

I went to Ultimate Electronics this morning (4th of July) with our Sony DCR-VX1000 digital video camcorder and a Firewire cable to conduct a new test.

I asked a salesman if he would be willing to unpack a new PIONEER DVR-7000 DVD VCR unit and allow me to test it.

He said "Yes." (He was very helpful.)

I plugged the Sony DCR-VX1000 Firewire cable into the PIONEER unit.

He and I recorded a few minutes of video from the camcorder to the last blank TDK DVD-R disc that we had left.

Afterward, I tested the PIONEER-recorded DVD-R disc in the following:

1. Panasonic LF-D311 drive - YES, COMPATIBLE

2. Micron laptop computer with DVD-ROM drive - YES, COMPATIBLE

3. Sony Vaio with Pioneer drive - YES, COMPATIBLE

4. Sony DVD stand alone player - YES, COMPATIBLE

5. GE 1106P-B stand alone player- YES, COMPATIBLE

6. Samsung DVD-ROM drive that is in my Dell computer - YES, COMPATIBLE

***The acid test will be whether this same disc plays in our computer guy's DVS (Acer) DVD-ROM drive that is attached to his Compaq EVO D500 computer.***

I suspect that it will play successfully.

If the DVS DVD-ROM plays the PIONEER disc successfully, then we can safely conclude the PIONEER DVR-7000 produces DVD-R discs that are more *compatible* than the DVD-R discs produced by the PANASONIC DMR-E20 units we purchased.

All of this is very ironic.

Panasonic and Pioneer are both key members of the DVD Forum.

As members of the forum, they're supposed to support the formats approved by the forum, which are...

1. DVD-R
2. DVD-RW
3. DVD-RAM

Well, it's clear that Panasonic's DMR-E20 DVD VCR - in spite of its documentation - does *not* support the very compatibility standards set forth by forum membership because DVD-R discs recorded by that unit fail in at least one drive we have tested.

To be fair, I should also mention that the DMR-E20 discs *do* play...

1. in my work computer's DVD-ROM drive (Samsung)

2. in a sister Department's Macintosh/Pioneer drive combination

3. in my home GE DVD stand alone player

4. in my home Panasonic LF-D311 DVD-R / DVD-RAM drive

But the DMR-E20 discs stubbornly refuse to play in the drive purchase by our computer guy.

It's also possible that the prior two drives purchased by our computer guy did - in fact - support the DVD-R standard in spite of their lack of official documentation. Our computer guy says their "tech support people" claimed their drives supported DVD-R.

If that's the case, then THREE drives we have tested refuse to play the DMR-E20-recorded DVD-R discs!

Philips and Sony and Hewlett Packard have bolted from the DVD Forum standards and have created the rogue DVD+R and DVD+RW disc formats, which are *not* approved by the DVD Forum.

(Yet Sony maintains membership in the forum.)

The DVD Forum Web site that makes it clear that DVD+R and DVD+RW are not approved:

DVD Forum

http://www.dvdforum.org

Even so, I yesterday began to suspect this entire DVD Forum approval business doesn't mean a hill of beans - not worth the paper it's written on.

So I also went to Boise's new Best Buy store today and asked the supervisor of sales to allow me to test their PHILIPS DVCR 985 DVD+R / DVD+RW model.

The Best Buy sales guy REFUSED.

He told me we would have to *buy* the unit first and then *return* it if it didn't work.

So I went to Circuit City.

There it was a different story.

The Circuit City salesman agreed to connect one of the store's Hi 8 camcorders to the Philips DVCR 985 and record to an HP DVD+R disc that I purchased.

Man, that disc was expensive!

$10.46 for just one DVD+R disc!

He and I tested the Philips-recorded disk in two stand alone DVD players and in every computer DVD-ROM drive in the store and we couldn't find a single instance of failure.

I'm willing to bet this test disc will even play in our computer guy's drive.

I'll find out tomorrow morning.

I'll also find out tomorrow morning if the PIONEER-recorded DVD-R plays successfully in the problem drive.

I'm betting it will.

We seem to have the following options:

1. One option - which I like least - is to keep the PANASONIC recorders that we have purchased and install DVD-RAM drives in our computers instead of DVD-ROM drives and record video to DVD-RAM discs instead of recording to DVD-R discs.

DVD-RAM discs do offer some advantages. The video recorded on them can be edited. The discs can also be re-written 100,000 times.

The DVD-RAM discs are encased in plastic and are therefore better protected and no jewel cases are required.

If we opt to buy DVD-RAM drives for our computers, they will also be able to play the "DVD-R" discs recorded on the Panasonic DMR-E20.

DVD-RAM drives can also read CD-R and CD-RW discs in addition to "DVD+R" discs.

(And, of course, DVD-RAM drives can read DVD-RAM discs.)

The big DISADVANTAGE of this option is that the DVD-RAM discs won't be playable in the majority of stand alone DVD players because most of today's stand alone DVD players are not designed to read DVD-RAM cartridges.

2. Return our PANASONIC units and buy two PIONEER units instead. The PIONEER units are far more expensive: $1,700 or so EACH.

If we opt to buy the PIONEER recorders, virtually any DVD-ROM drive - assuming our computer guy's drive test is successful - will be able to read the DVD-Rs produced and virtually all newer stand alone DVD players will be able to read the DVD-Rs produced.

The Pioneer units will also record to DVD-RW discs that are similar to DVD-RAM in the sense that they can be re-written, but not as many times (1,000 times is the official limit). DVD-RW discs are less compatible than DVD-R, but more compatible than DVD-RAM.

The Pioneer discs would be DVD Forum approved, too.

But as I stated earlier, I'm beginning to suspect DVD Forum approval doesn't really mean anything important and is not a significant guarantee of compatibility.

3. Return the Panasonic units and exchange them for two Philips DVCR 985 "DVD+R / DVD+RW" units. These units are about $1,000 each and the DVD+R discs seem to play in everything I've tried.

I'm willing to bet the PHILIPS-recorded DVD+R disc will play in our computer guy's problem DVD-ROM player.

Bottom line:

My first hand testing has greatly relieved my anxiety and my doubts about "non-approved" DVD+R and DVD+RW formats.

I am also willing to wager - based on my tests - that the DVD+R discs will prove to be just as compatible as DVD-R discs in the magazine articles that are sure to be published in the weeks ahead about this new format.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

**jeff b** · 5 July 2002, 04:29

Wally: www.hp.com/support/dvd-compatibility

I took that list from the HP site and narrowed it down to those players that appear on both the +R list and the +RW list. It made for a considerably shorter list. The figures to the right of some of the model listings are USD prices I found on quick searches:

ApexAD-500W
DenonDVD-3300 $955.00
Go Video!DVP 850
HitachiDVP315U $159.95
JVC XV-D723GD $484.99
Mintek2110
MitsubishiDD-4020
PanasonicDVD-RV31 $145.00
PanasonicRP56 $199.99
PhilipsDVD 711 $90.00
PioneerDV-343 $219.99
PioneerDV 434 $182.95
Pioneer DVL-414
Pioneer DV 525 $264.99
Raite RDP-715
RCA RC5240P $150.00
RCA RC5215P
Samsung DVD 611
Sharp DV 740
SMC DVD-330S
Sony DVP-NS400D $179.95
Sony DVP-NS700P $239.99
Sony DVP9000ES $979.00
Sony DVP-S670D
Sony DVP-S550D
Sony DVP S 560D
Sony DVP-NS400D $174.99
Toshiba SD-3750 $174.99
Zenith DVD-2201
Zenith DVC2200
Zenith DVD 2381

Jerry: I wish I had your resources, man! I remain in KISS mode on this whole subject of "homebrew DVD's" because I'm currently cruising through a period of being laid off from work... limited resources. Besides, it's clear that the standards issues have yet to settle out, and will probably continue to be in a state of flux at the bottom end of the market for some time to come.

Jeff B

**Snake-Eyes** · 5 July 2002, 06:09

Thanks for the hard work and posting these findings, Jerry. Also thanks to you Jeff, for posting that compatibility list.

Looks like I may end up buying a Philips DVD+R/+RW burner for my PC in the (hopefully) not to distant future, based on your testing and this compatibility table (*both* of my Sony players are in that list

). Media prices need to drop a bit first though (50%), since I don't have a large budget to spend on media, and intend to archive all my DV footage off onto DVD, reusing the DV tapes as much as possible. As it stands right now, DV tapes are cheaper than the DVDs, so it's still economically more feasible to use the tapes themselves for storage (and copy the video onto DVDs once the media prices have dropped).

**wkulecz** · 5 July 2002, 06:45

I have a Zenith DVD2381. I can tell you it glitches badly on DVD+RW and not quite so bad on DVD-R (not compatible with either by my definition) Seems to play DVD+R OK, but I see glitches on both DVD+R disks I've burned, but the glitches are in the exact same spot on all three players I've ready access to -- something I've never seen in my DVD-R testing.

I'm concluding either these DVD+R Verbatim disks have bad spots or the DVCR-985 introduces a few glitches on encoding or a new problem has developed on my computer.

I don't think my computer suddenly developed a problem outputting DV as I seem to have produced a glitch free DVD+RW (played back on Sony DVP-NS315 which claims DVD-R and DVD+RW compatibility on the box!) which would tend to suggest its not a DV to MPEG encoding problem in the DVCR-985 unless its meta issue like sensitivity to AC powerline noise. (I have poor quality AC power, computer is on a UPS, DVCR is on its "surge protected outputs).

I'm looking for a differnet brand of DVD+R blanks locally.

Thanks for the list!!

--wally.

**Jerry Jones** · 5 July 2002, 07:53

I'm sorry to report some bad news about the DVD+R disc.

OUR FINAL 'ACID' TEST RESULTS

Our three contenders were:

1. Panasonic DMR-E20: about $700
2. Pioneer DVR-7000: around $1,700 - $1,800
3. Philips DVCR 985: about $1,000

Our 'Acid' test DVD-ROM drive is the DVS DSR1600H:

http://www.dvsystems.com/v1/prodrom.html

Panasonic DMR-E20:

DVD-Rs produced by this unit played in every set top player we tried, but not in every computer DVD-ROM drive we tried. DVD-R discs created by this unit are rejected by our DVD-R compliant DVS DVD-ROM drive. DVD-R discs created by this unit were *also* rejected by the Creative Labs PC-DVD Ovation 16x drive and the Hi-Val HDVD16A - 16R DVD-ROM drive. Ironically, my computer DVD burner is a Panasonic LF-D311. The DVD-Rs created by my Panasonic LF-D311 play *perfectly* on the DVS DVD-ROM drive.

So remember: Drives and VCRs by the very same manufacturer can perform differently!

Philips DVCR 985:

Yesterday evening, I thought the DVD+R disc we recorded on this unit was going to play in our problem drive... the DVS DSR1600H because the disc played in every computer DVD-ROM drive we tested inside Circuit City. The disc also played in my home GE 1106P-B player and in my Panasonic LF-D311 DVD-R/DVD-RAM drive.

*However* - the DVD+R disc... when inserted into our DVS DSR1600H... literally almost destroyed the drive, causing the heads to thrash wildly! This was a catastrophic disappointment.

Pioneer DVR-7000

Our last hope was the DVD-R disc recorded on the DVR-7000, which is the most expensive DVD VCR of the three.

BINGO!!!

The PIONEER DVR-7000-recorded DVD-R disc played in our problem drive - in the DVS DSR1600H - with absolutely no problems.

THE WINNER: PIONEER DVR-7000!!!

Pioneer is the "old veteran" when it comes to manufacturing DVD devices and it really has been evident to us in our testing.

We absolutely must have units that can produce compatible DVD-Rs because we'll be recording literally hours and hours of material to disc in the months ahead.

Enough said. We'll be buying the Pioneer units.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

**Jerry Jones** · 5 July 2002, 07:55

In my opinion, the question we should be asking isn't:

"Which format will win?"

The question we should be asking is:

"Does this specific device work as advertised, regardless of format?"

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

**wkulecz** · 5 July 2002, 14:33

I'd love to have you send me a DVD-R burned on the DVR-7000 to try!

--wally.

**Jerry Jones** · 5 July 2002, 20:14

I'm pretty certain our test results will persuade my department personnel to buy two of the Pioneers.

So - yeah - when that happens I'll record a disc for you to try, Wally.

Jerry

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