Field Test: PANASONIC DMR-E20 DVD VCR

[Jerry Jones]

A few notes I've taken from my past two days of experience with the stand alone DVD player/recorder from Panasonic known as the DMR-E20:

1. My department bought the Panasonic DMR-E20 based on my good experience with the Panasonic LF-D311 DVD-R/DVD-RAM drive.

2. Our primary objective was to be able to record to DVD-R discs that would be playable in most newer stand alone DVD players and in most computer DVD-ROM drives.

3. While we are very pleased with the DVD-RAM capabilities and
features, the compatibility issues between DVD-RAM and stand alone player & stand alone computer DVD-ROM drives make this format a secondary 'need.' It's too bad DVD-RAM drives aren't more universal as the technical advantages of the DVD-RAM format are superior to the features of the others.

Our testing has delivered mixed results:

The Good: Image quality of the video recorded by this unit from DV camcorders with S-Video outputs is superb - virtually identical to the native DV on the tape.

The Bad: The video recorded to DVD-R is burned as "DVD-Video" and - surprisingly - these DMR-E20-created DVD-Rs are not nearly as compatible with existing DVD-ROM drives as we had hoped.

We have tested the DVD-Rs recorded by the Panasonic DMR-E20 on the following:

1. An Apple Macintosh with a Pioneer DVD 'Super Drive' - YES,
COMPATIBLE.

2. A Dell Dimension 8100 with a Samsung DVD-ROM drive - YES,
COMPATIBLE.

3. A self assembled computer with a Panasonic LF-D311 - YES,
COMPATIBLE.

4. A stand alone DVD player (GE 1106P-B) - YES, COMPATIBLE

But to our astonishment:

The very same DVD-R disc playable in the above units DOES NOT PLAY nor is it even RECOGNIZED by:

1. A Compaq EVO D500 mini tower computer that has had three
successive DVD-ROM drive brands installed, including:

a. The newest model Creative Labs DVD-ROM drive - DISC NOT RECOGNIZED!

b. The newest Hi-Val DVD-ROM drive - DISC NOT RECOGNIZED!

c. The newest DVS (Acer) DVD-ROM drive - DISC NOT RECOGNIZED!

We wondered if maybe it was the usual COMPAQ compatibility problem.

So we took the DVS DVD-ROM drive out of the Compaq and installed it in a Dell.

Same result: DISC NOT RECOGNIZED.

To make matters even more frustrating...

I took another DVD-R disc, burned a video to it using my Panasonic LF-D311 (a computer drive that writes to both DVD-RAM and DVD-R).

The LF-D311-created DVD-R disc plays perfectly in the COMPAQ with the DVS DVD-ROM drive!!! (Used ULEAD DVD Workshop for authoring).

We wondered if maybe the first disc we used in the Panasonic DMR-E20 was bad so we burned another one to a brand new TDK.

Nope. Still doesn't work.

So we have been forced to conclude that Panasonic's DMR-E20 stand alone DVD player/recorder creates DVD-R discs that have compatibility issues with certain DVD-ROM computer drives.

We will be returning our DMR-E20 to the store.

We have learned Panasonic has just started shipping a new, replacement model:

http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/shop/NewDesign/ModelTemplate.asp?ModelId=15270&show_all=false&product_exists=True&active=1&ModelNo=DMR-E30K&CategoryId=2596

...the DMR-E30.

If the local store has one in stock, we will test the DVD-Rs it
creates.

If successful, we'll conclude Panasonic has fixed the issue.

If not, we'll be forced to exchange our Panasonic DMR-E20 for either a Philips DVD+R/+RW unit or the stand alone Pioneer unit.

Too bad. I was hoping we could retain the dual DVD-R/DVD-RAM
functionality.

But DVD-R issues like this are just too major to ignore.

I hope Panasonic reps read this.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[wkulecz]

Bummer!

This makes me pretty much give up any hope of serious distrubution on DVD-R.

As the A03 and LF-D311 close out and threaten to get below $200 I'll get one for my own use on my compatible Sony player like I do now with SVCD on CD-RW.

--wally.

I'll post about my Phillips DVCR-985 results in a few days. I need to try another brand of DVD+R blanks as either the DVCR glitches on recording or both these Verbatim disks have hard errors, plus I've a few other tests to make to try and isolate what might be going wrong.

[dchip]

Jerry, you're right, that's a lot of incompatibility for such a popular standalone burner. As far as I remember reading, these burners have a way of recording some on a DVD-R and then letting you come back in another session and put some more on the disk before "closing" the disk. I'm just curious if the disks you tested were fully burned or just partial. Also, what format is the audio in?

I hope some unseen something turns up in your research. I had this unit in my sights, too, for doing quickie DVD's or TV stuff, but if it can't make a compatible DVD-R, I'll have to reconsider. It's a shame, because the price on this one is really getting within reach.

[wkulecz]

At this point, if you have, or are willing to buy a compatable DVD player, I can recommend the Phillips DVCR-985 and DVD+RW disks for recording TV shows. I don't think I'd recommend it for anything else though. But for $800-$1000, you have to really like recording TV shows! I'll likely be returning mine based on how it works as an alternative to computer DV to DVD authoring, but I'd buy one for TV recording when they get down to about $400-500.

I'll post my full results after I've tried at least one more brand of DVD+R blank.

--wally.

[Jerry Jones]

Okay - this is an interesting update.

I went to Ultimate Electronics today and the salesman was very nice and helpful.

He actually agreed to go get a PIONEER DVR-7000 out of a back room, unpack it, and hook it up to a TV set so that I could test it.

Here's a review of the PIONEER DVR-7000:

http://electronics.cnet.com/electronics/0-6342369-1304-8419397.html

I used my Sony DCR-VX1000.

Since the Pioneer DVR-7000 has a Firewire in/out, the connection was very simple - only one wire.

(No need to worry about separate video and audio cables.)

We recorded straight off of a Mini DV tape for about five minutes.

Then we "finalized" the disc.

In answer to an earlier question, I can say the process of recording to and finalizing DVD-R discs is similar for both the Panasonic DMR-E20 and the Pioneer DVR-7000.

You put the DVD-R disc in, you press START when you want to record, you press STOP when you want to stop recording and if you want to add another track to the DVD-R disc you simply press START again and then press STOP when you want to end that track and so on and so on.

You can even eject the DVD-R disc from the machine and then put it back in and add tracks in this manner.

Then you "finalize" the disc... which makes it into a playable disc... but also makes it impossible to record any additional tracks to the disc.

To "finalize" the disc, you choose a menu option on the screen and wait for a few minutes as the recorder "processes" the disc.

Okay - here's my compatibility report for the Pioneer DVR-7000:

1. Panasonic LF-D311 drive - YES, COMPATIBLE
2. Micron laptop computer with DVD-ROM drive - YES, COMPATIBLE
3. Sony Vaio with Pioneer drive - YES, COMPATIBLE
4. Sony DVD stand alone player - YES, COMPATIBLE
5. GE 1106P-B stand alone player- YES, COMPATIBLE
6. Samsung DVD-ROM drive - YES, COMPATIBLE

The computer with the DVS DVD-ROM drive is locked in a room and I can't get to it at this moment.

However, THAT COMPUTER WILL BE THE ACID TEST.

I'll test it first thing in the morning and post a follow-up to this message.

If it works, then I must conclude that the DVD-R discs produced by the PIONEER DVR-7000 are much more compatible than the DVD-R discs produced by the PANASONIC DMR-E20.

A note about the Philips DVD+R/DVD+RW VCR that Wally is testing.

I went to the local Boise "Best Buy" store to attempt a test of that same unit this morning.

The sales supervisor at Best Buy advised me he would not allow me to conduct a test; he said I must buy the unit and then test it on my own and if it fails I could return it.

So - right off the bat - I can tell you that option is something the people in our department are not going to like.

I suspect Best Buy and Philips have *both* lost a sale because of the unwillingness of the sales staff to let me do a simple "record to DVD+R" test using my DV camcorder. Five minutes would have been all I needed.

Too bad.

We're also finding out that Best Buy is very inflexible on price.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

I had hoped we could get "demos" of the three main contenders in the DVD stand alone recorder market *prior to buying* to spare us from any unknown and undocumented disappointments.

THREE CONTENDERS:

1. Panasonic DMR-E20: $700
2. Pioneer DVR-7000: $1,700 - $1,800
3. Philips DVCR 985: $1,000

The Panasonic DMR-E20 stand alone DVD recorders that we purchased have clearly been a disappointment in one key respect: DVD-R COMPATIBILITY.

Here's why:

Our computer guy initially bought two DVD-ROM computer drives that failed to read the DVD-R discs recorded in the Panasonic unit.

He's installed these drives into a Compaq Evo D500 tower computer near his cubicle.

I noted that neither of the first two DVD-ROM drives came with documentation confirming support for DVD-R discs.

So when they failed to read the DMR-E20-recorded DVD-R disc, I thought it was reasonable to assume those drives simply had not been designed to read DVD-R discs.

After he bought a third, DVS DVD-ROM drive, he noted that drive *also* failed to read the DVD-R discs recorded by the Panasonic DMR-E20.

At first, I leaned toward the notion something about Compaq machines or perhaps the installation of the drive or something driver-related might have gone awry.

But after checking and double-checking, it was clear that the DVS DVD-ROM drive was simply refusing to read the Panasonic DMR-E20-created disc even though the DVS documentation *confirms support for DVD-R discs.*

Adding to our suspicion was the fact that my home Panasonic LF-D311 produces DVD-R discs that work great even with the DVS DVD-ROM drive.

I confirmed that fact by recording my recent Public Works video to a DVD-R disc using my Panasonic LF-D311.

The Panasonic LF-D311-recorded disc plays fine in every computer drive and every stand alone player we've tested, including our computer guy's drive!!

So clearly Panasonic has screwed up as their stand alone DVD VCR doesn't match the performance of their DVD computer drive!

The Panasonic DMR-E20 produces DVD-R discs that are not as compatible as the DVD-R discs produced by the Panasonic LF-D311!

I went to Ultimate Electronics this morning (4th of July) with our Sony DCR-VX1000 digital video camcorder and a Firewire cable to conduct a new test.

I asked a salesman if he would be willing to unpack a new PIONEER DVR-7000 DVD VCR unit and allow me to test it.

He said "Yes." (He was very helpful.)

I plugged the Sony DCR-VX1000 Firewire cable into the PIONEER unit.

He and I recorded a few minutes of video from the camcorder to the last blank TDK DVD-R disc that we had left.

Afterward, I tested the PIONEER-recorded DVD-R disc in the following:

1. Panasonic LF-D311 drive - YES, COMPATIBLE

2. Micron laptop computer with DVD-ROM drive - YES, COMPATIBLE

3. Sony Vaio with Pioneer drive - YES, COMPATIBLE

4. Sony DVD stand alone player - YES, COMPATIBLE

5. GE 1106P-B stand alone player- YES, COMPATIBLE

6. Samsung DVD-ROM drive that is in my Dell computer - YES, COMPATIBLE

***The acid test will be whether this same disc plays in our computer guy's DVS (Acer) DVD-ROM drive that is attached to his Compaq EVO D500 computer.***

I suspect that it will play successfully.

If the DVS DVD-ROM plays the PIONEER disc successfully, then we can safely conclude the PIONEER DVR-7000 produces DVD-R discs that are more *compatible* than the DVD-R discs produced by the PANASONIC DMR-E20 units we purchased.

All of this is very ironic.

Panasonic and Pioneer are both key members of the DVD Forum.

As members of the forum, they're supposed to support the formats approved by the forum, which are...

1. DVD-R
2. DVD-RW
3. DVD-RAM

Well, it's clear that Panasonic's DMR-E20 DVD VCR - in spite of its documentation - does *not* support the very compatibility standards set forth by forum membership because DVD-R discs recorded by that unit fail in at least one drive we have tested.

To be fair, I should also mention that the DMR-E20 discs *do* play...

1. in my work computer's DVD-ROM drive (Samsung)

2. in a sister Department's Macintosh/Pioneer drive combination

3. in my home GE DVD stand alone player

4. in my home Panasonic LF-D311 DVD-R / DVD-RAM drive

But the DMR-E20 discs stubbornly refuse to play in the drive purchase by our computer guy.

It's also possible that the prior two drives purchased by our computer guy did - in fact - support the DVD-R standard in spite of their lack of official documentation. Our computer guy says their "tech support people" claimed their drives supported DVD-R.

If that's the case, then THREE drives we have tested refuse to play the DMR-E20-recorded DVD-R discs!

Philips and Sony and Hewlett Packard have bolted from the DVD Forum standards and have created the rogue DVD+R and DVD+RW disc formats, which are *not* approved by the DVD Forum.

(Yet Sony maintains membership in the forum.)

The DVD Forum Web site that makes it clear that DVD+R and DVD+RW are not approved:

http://www.dvdforum.org

Even so, I yesterday began to suspect this entire DVD Forum approval business doesn't mean a hill of beans - not worth the paper it's written on.

So I also went to Boise's new Best Buy store today and asked the supervisor of sales to allow me to test their PHILIPS DVCR 985 DVD+R / DVD+RW model.

The Best Buy sales guy REFUSED.

He told me we would have to *buy* the unit first and then *return* it if it didn't work.

So I went to Circuit City.

There it was a different story.

The Circuit City salesman agreed to connect one of the store's Hi 8 camcorders to the Philips DVCR 985 and record to an HP DVD+R disc that I purchased.

Man, that disc was expensive!

$10.46 for just one DVD+R disc!

He and I tested the Philips-recorded disk in two stand alone DVD players and in every computer DVD-ROM drive in the store and we couldn't find a single instance of failure.

I'm willing to bet this test disc will even play in our computer guy's drive.

I'll find out tomorrow morning.

I'll also find out tomorrow morning if the PIONEER-recorded DVD-R plays successfully in the problem drive.

I'm betting it will.

We seem to have the following options:

1. One option - which I like least - is to keep the PANASONIC recorders that we have purchased and install DVD-RAM drives in our computers instead of DVD-ROM drives and record video to DVD-RAM discs instead of recording to DVD-R discs.

DVD-RAM discs do offer some advantages. The video recorded on them can be edited. The discs can also be re-written 100,000 times.

The DVD-RAM discs are encased in plastic and are therefore better protected and no jewel cases are required.

If we opt to buy DVD-RAM drives for our computers, they will also be able to play the "DVD-R" discs recorded on the Panasonic DMR-E20.

DVD-RAM drives can also read CD-R and CD-RW discs in addition to "DVD+R" discs.

(And, of course, DVD-RAM drives can read DVD-RAM discs.)

The big DISADVANTAGE of this option is that the DVD-RAM discs won't be playable in the majority of stand alone DVD players because most of today's stand alone DVD players are not designed to read DVD-RAM cartridges.

2. Return our PANASONIC units and buy two PIONEER units instead. The PIONEER units are far more expensive: $1,700 or so EACH.

If we opt to buy the PIONEER recorders, virtually any DVD-ROM drive - assuming our computer guy's drive test is successful - will be able to read the DVD-Rs produced and virtually all newer stand alone DVD players will be able to read the DVD-Rs produced.

The Pioneer units will also record to DVD-RW discs that are similar to DVD-RAM in the sense that they can be re-written, but not as many times (1,000 times is the official limit). DVD-RW discs are less compatible than DVD-R, but more compatible than DVD-RAM.

The Pioneer discs would be DVD Forum approved, too.

But as I stated earlier, I'm beginning to suspect DVD Forum approval doesn't really mean anything important and is not a significant guarantee of compatibility.

3. Return the Panasonic units and exchange them for two Philips DVCR 985 "DVD+R / DVD+RW" units. These units are about $1,000 each and the DVD+R discs seem to play in everything I've tried.

I'm willing to bet the PHILIPS-recorded DVD+R disc will play in our computer guy's problem DVD-ROM player.

Bottom line:

My first hand testing has greatly relieved my anxiety and my doubts about "non-approved" DVD+R and DVD+RW formats.

I am also willing to wager - based on my tests - that the DVD+R discs will prove to be just as compatible as DVD-R discs in the magazine articles that are sure to be published in the weeks ahead about this new format.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

I'm sorry to report some bad news about the DVD+R disc.

OUR FINAL 'ACID' TEST RESULTS

Our three contenders were:

1. Panasonic DMR-E20: about $700
2. Pioneer DVR-7000: around $1,700 - $1,800
3. Philips DVCR 985: about $1,000

Our 'Acid' test DVD-ROM drive is the DVS DSR1600H:

http://www.dvsystems.com/v1/prodrom.html

Panasonic DMR-E20:

DVD-Rs produced by this unit played in every set top player we tried, but not in every computer DVD-ROM drive we tried. DVD-R discs created by this unit are rejected by our DVD-R compliant DVS DVD-ROM drive. DVD-R discs created by this unit were *also* rejected by the Creative Labs PC-DVD Ovation 16x drive and the Hi-Val HDVD16A - 16R DVD-ROM drive. Ironically, my computer DVD burner is a Panasonic LF-D311. The DVD-Rs created by the LF-D311 play *perfectly* in the DVS DVD-ROM drive.

So remember: Drives and VCRs by the very same manufacturer can perform differently!

Philips DVCR 985:

Yesterday evening, I thought the DVD+R disc we recorded on this unit was going to play in our problem drive... the DVS DSR1600H because the disc played in every computer DVD-ROM drive we tested inside Circuit City. The disc also played in my home GE 1106P-B player and in my Panasonic LF-D311 DVD-R/DVD-RAM drive.

*However* - the DVD+R disc... when inserted into our DVS DSR1600H... literally almost destroyed the drive, causing the heads to thrash wildly! This was a catastrophic disappointment.

Pioneer DVR-7000

Our last hope was the DVD-R disc recorded on the DVR-7000, which is the most expensive DVD VCR of the three.

BINGO!!!

The PIONEER DVR-7000-recorded DVD-R disc played in our problem drive - in the DVS DSR1600H - with absolutely no problems.

THE WINNER: PIONEER DVR-7000!!!

Pioneer is the "old veteran" when it comes to manufacturing DVD devices and it really has been evident to us in our testing.

We absolutely must have units that can produce compatible DVD-Rs because we'll be recording literally hours and hours of material to disc in the months ahead.

Enough said. We'll be buying the Pioneer units.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Flying dutchman]

I think we can conclude that DVD+R and DVD-R compatibility suffers more from software/firmware issues than from the media themselves. Which is, by the way, the same conclusion that the Ct magazine reached. The drives and the authoring programs can make or break the compatibility. In the case of standalone recorders, it might actually be a disadvantage to have a complete package, because the drive, firmware and authoring software are all built-in so there's little or nothing to tweak/fix/update.

I'm going to watch the market a while, and buy the most compatible PC DVD drive and the most compatible authoring program. BTW, I've just read that some authoring issues were fixed in Nero, has anybody tried that already?

[wkulecz]

Watch for my new thread.

I've strong evidence that Ct magazine's conclusion is incorrect.

Its the players!

DVD-R and DVD+R compatibility in existing players is a crap shoot. A compatible player will work. Don't expect solutions from the authoring software or burner firmware updates.

Perhaps if your DVD player has firmware that can be upgraded (and the manufacturer will supply it!) you can avoid buying a new compatible player if yours fails with DVD-R or DVD+R.

--wally.

[Jerry Jones]

My department is having a tough time deciding on DVD VCRs.


So I offered my 'two cents' in a memo:


__________________________


TEXT OF MEMO:



If the Pioneer units are deemed too expensive...


**then I would suggest keeping the two DVD-R/DVD-RAM recorders that we have currently.**


(Panasonic DMR-E20 models)


Why?


Their DVD-RAM capability.


Instead of recording to DVD-R discs, why not instead record to DVD-RAM discs?


The DVD-RAM discs are encased in plastic and are therefore more protected from everyday wear and tear in the field and in the office.


The DVD-RAM discs can be either single or DOUBLE sided. That means a double-sided disc can hold 9 gigabytes of video - effectively cutting our storage requirements by 50% over other re-writable formats such as DVD+RW or DVD-RW.


DVD-RAM - as a rewritable format - features 'defect management' to reduce the chance of corrupted data.


DVD-RAM - unlike the 'write-once' formats such as DVD-R or DVD+R - can be 'play listed' so that the operator can record an entire VHS tape to DVD in one pass and then afterward set chapter stops at any given point on the disc. (The other re-writable formats can do this as well.)


DVD-RAM offers true random-access.


To use DVD-RAM, you would simply need to specify that all computer DVD drives be able to 'read' DVD-RAM discs.


An example of a major DVD-RAM drive manufacturer is Toshiba.


Toshiba's SD-M1612 DVD-ROM drive reads DVD-RAM media:

http://www.toshiba.com/taissdd/techdocs/sdm1612/1612intro.shtml

It costs $70 full retail... maybe less on sale.


The *only* downside of DVD-RAM cartridges is that they won't play in stand alone DVD players connected to TV sets.


I'm now advised that isn't our department's primary objective anyway.


Even if it were, if we decide we *do* want stand alone player compatibility we can simply record to DVD-R.


My tests of the Panasonic unit revealed *no* problems with DVD-R playback in any of the stand alone DVD players I tested on Thursday of last week at Ultimate Electronics.


(The Panasonic unit's only problem was with our network administrator's DVD-ROM drives.)


It seems clear we want discs that will play back on computers.


So I would suggest equipping computers with DVD-RAM-capable drives.


Unless we're willing to spend the money for the rock solid compatibility of Pioneer DVD-R, we're left with Panasonic and Philips.


...and since the Philips DVD+R disc failed in our DVD-ROM test - it doesn't offer any real advantages over what we currently have.


I would be much more in favor of switching to the Philips option HAD THE DVD+R DISC WORKED IN OUR FINNICKY DVD-ROM DRIVE. IT DID NOT.


In addition, the Philips DVD+RW (re-writable) format will run into the same occasional incompatibility issues as the Panasonic DVD-R.


The other advantage of keeping the two Panasonic units is they are the most economical of the three units.


Standardize the targeted computer drives to read DVD-RAM media, and you'll eliminate the compatibility problem.


Of course, the expensive Pioneer units have demonstrated why they're more expensive - greater compatibility with a wider variety of playback devices.


But if the price of those units is too high, then it would seem to me nothing is gained by switching to Philips.


My two cents,


Jerry Jones