Just bought a Pioneer 104 DVD burner!

[Elie]

Will be testing it Friday

I have DVD it LE, it's ok for now, can't wait to see the end results.

Any tips more than welcome.

Regards,
Elie

[Patrick]

Elie, I see that this unit (the OEM version) is selling in the States for under $250(US). Would you care to say what your price was here in Canada?

[jeff b]

Hi Elie... it really is difficult to resist "diving in" isn't it?

Jeff B

[Snake-Eyes]

I am so tempted to go out and purchase a DVD burner right now. I recently saw a news item about an all-in-one job that burns DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM, CD-R, and CD-RW formats. It is (quite obvious why too) still fairly expensive compared to the rest of the competition right now. The only reason I'm holding out has mainly to do with compatibility. I want something that will make discs that play back in my DVD player with the full quality I get on tape with my miniDV camcorder (not quite true DVD quality, but much better than VHS, VCD, or even most SVCD that I can put on CD right now). Most likely I'll need to buy both a new player and the burner. Even then, it will probably be only after the standards shakeout has completed, and the +R/+RW/-R/-RW formats are narrowed down to one final format.

[wkulecz]

If cost is an issue I'd wait. The A03 and A04 have dropped like a rock in price for a reason, I suspect. OTOH if you are sure you have a player that is DVD-R (and/or DVD-RW) compatible and don't care about other people being able to play your disks the price is getting right.

But based on my initial tests of DVD+R, DVD-R is gonna lose the "format war"

I've tested 32 standalone players with DVD-R. Only 7 of these played back glitch free with working FF/REV and chapter navigation. Only 3 players completely refused to play DVD-R, but the glitches I see on the other 22 players was a showstopper for me.

DVD+R its been 3 of 3 with an asterick, as all three players have a glitch in the exact same spot on the disk. Only 1 of these 3 players does DVD-R correctly!

DVD+R playback in my computer DVDROM drive also has the glitch in the exact same spot leading to the initial conclusion that I've defective DVD+R media (Verbatim) -- not a good thing at current prices! I didn't see any evidence of media defects (i.e. glitches in the same spot across players on a particular disk) in my DVD-R tests.

My opinion is subject to change upon trying a different brand of DVD+R media!

I've no stake in DVD+R vs DVD-R, I just want to make disks that I can expect to play correctly in the random players other people have chosen to buy! I've no illusions my stuff is good enough that people will buy a new player to watch it!

--wally.

[Jerry Jones]

I have to disagree - this morning - Wally.

In my opinion, the question we should be asking isn't:

"Which format will win?"

The question we should be asking is:

"Does this specific device work as advertised, regardless of format?"

OUR FINAL 'ACID' TEST RESULTS:

Our three contenders were:

1. Panasonic DMR-E20: about $700
2. Pioneer DVR-7000: around $1,700 - $1,800
3. Philips DVCR 985: about $1,000

Our 'Acid' test DVD-ROM drive is the DVS DSR1600H:

http://www.dvsystems.com/v1/prodrom.html

Panasonic DMR-E20:

DVD-Rs produced by this unit played in every set top player we tried, but not in every computer DVD-ROM drive we tried. DVD-R discs created by this unit are rejected by our DVD-R compliant DVS DVD-ROM drive. DVD-R discs created by this unit were *also* rejected by the Creative Labs PC-DVD Ovation 16x drive and the Hi-Val HDVD16A - 16R DVD-ROM drive. Ironically, my Panasonic computer DVD burner is an LF-D311. The DVD-Rs created by the Panasonic LF-D311 play perfectly on the DVS DVD-ROM drive!

So remember: Drives and VCRs by the same manufacturers perform differently!

Philips DVCR 985:

Yesterday evening, I thought the DVD+R disc we recorded on this unit was going to play in our problem drive... the DVS DSR1600H because the disc played in every computer DVD-ROM drive we tested inside Circuit City. The disc also played in my home GE 1106P-B player and in my Panasonic LF-D311 DVD-R/DVD-RAM drive.

*However* - the DVD+R disc... when inserted into our DVS DSR1600H... literally almost destroyed the drive, causing the heads to thrash wildly! This was a catastrophic disappointment.

Pioneer DVR-7000

Our last hope was the DVD-R disc recorded on the DVR-7000, which is the most expensive DVD VCR of the three.

BINGO!!!

The PIONEER DVR-7000-recorded DVD-R disc played in our problem drive - in the DVS DSR1600H - with absolutely no problems.

THE WINNER: PIONEER DVR-7000!!!

Pioneer is the "old veteran" when it comes to manufacturing DVD devices and it really has been evident to us in our testing.

We absolutely must have units that can produce compatible DVD-Rs because we'll be recording literally hours and hours of material to disc in the months ahead.

Enough said. We'll be buying the Pioneer units.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[johnpr98]

Hi Elie

I have had great success with my Pioneer A03.

My tip for you is to download the trial of Ulead DVD Workshop.

The new Ulead MPEG2 codec is very good IMHO.

Regards

John

http://www.johnpr98.com

[Elie]

Thank you all!

Patrick, it cost me (not including tax) $590.00 Canadian.

Jeff,
I needed the burner because my client requested a DVD, and as you said it's hard to resist

John,
Thanks for the tip, I will give it a shot.
I also have the following codecs to try out..

C-Cube (RT.X100) which is good when you render at 7mbps VBR
Ligos Go Motion
I'll try Ulead DVD Workshop and compare all to see which one gives best quality.

Jerrold, Thanks for the info! I guess Pioneer has the lead over it's competition, which is why I chose the 104 oem.
Now I know it's a bit different than the DVR 7000 because it's got it's own codec built in, but I'm pretty sure I'll come up with some kind of solution to produce the cleanest DVD possible using one of the above mentioned codecs.



Regards,
Elie

[Patrick]

Yikes !!!

$590(Cdn) ??!!!

Geez, we really get hosed here in Canada with the price on some items. I suppose in this case I should say we get BURNED. Sorry, couldn't resist.

[wkulecz]

I'm afraid the "war" will be won by which side lines up the low cost disk producers to flood the market with the cheapest blank disks, as few people seem to care about the glitches. DVD-R clearly has the lead.

Elie, I hope your client has a rather new DVD player, or one made by Pioneer, Sony, or Panasonic, or is used to watching DirectTV thus thinking video mosaic breakups are "normal" part of the digital experience.

If buying a new one, the Sony DVP-NS315 is $<150 and seems to play my DVD-R disks from October glitch free. It also plays the DVD+RW made in the DVCR-985 glitch free. It has DVD-R and DVD+RW compatibility advertised on the box.

I won't be keeping the DVCR as its menus are way too much of a PITA for other than one-ofs, making it useless to me (even though I demand very little in the way of menus), but while I have it, I picked up a noname "Ikebana" external 1394 DVD+RW/R burner from Fry's for $480 along with a 5-pak of HP brand DVD+R blanks for $28 this is two dollars cheaper than the Apple DVD-R blanks were back in October. I note that it came bundled with two completely unmarked blank disks. A sticker on the envelope says "sample DVD-R media", on the other it says "sample DVD+RW media". These look like the totally bare CD-R you find "free after rebate" at places like CompUSA etc other than the purplish color on the recording side, so the cheap DVD+RW/R flood may be comming sooner than we expect.

IF DVD+R plays in all my players I'll go with it. If not I'll look for a close out DVD-R burner.

--wally.

[johnpr98]

Video mosaic breakups were evident with the ligos encoder (MSP 6.5 & VS 5), I haven't seen them with the ADS IDVD or new Ulead MPEG codec available with Ulead VS 6 & DVD Workshop.

The DVD discs are also a factor in playback, they are not all created equal.

Regards

John

http://www.johnpr98.com

[davpen]

I purchased a Pioneer A04 a few weeks back as well. So far I have been very pleased with it.

From what I have seen, so far, both the media and the encoder seem to be a big factors in compatibility. I have some cheap DVD-R media that can not be read by any of my PC DVD drives (except the A04 itself) however they work fine in a Pioneer 525 and Toshiba 1300 DVD players. Verbatim and Pioneer DVD-Rs work perfectly in all the drives.

I have been using DVD Workshop for both authoring and the MPEG2 encoding. I have been very impressed with the quality and ease of use. It doesn't do everything but what it does do it does fairly well.

While I haven't tried any other MPEG2 encoders this time around, past experience has shown me that they are not all created equal. I have had play back glitches, similar to those being described in this thread, when using other encoders for past efforts at producing SVCDs. My guess is that at least some of the compatibility problems being put down to DVD-R (and +R) are in fact encoder problems.

I don't know who is going to win the DVD standards war. I would guess that the marketing departments are going to decide it rather than any minor technical merits one way or another. I have gone with -R for now as it is the slightly more mature product with its limitations fairly well documented. But if +R eventually wins out then I will buy a +R drive next time.



Cheers,

David.

[wkulecz]

All I can do is reiterate. My initial MSP6.5 DVD-R made in October plays fine in the Sony 315 which advertises DVD-R and DVD+RW compatibility.

Every burning/authoring purmutation I tried had small effects but if one player stopped glitching another one now had broken FF/REV and/or chapter navigation.

At the $500+ burner price level I only care about having burned disks playing in the standalone DVD players that my audiance already has.

I've given up on DVD-R for this, and am evaluting DVD+R now. If DVD+R is not significantly better I'll give up on it and get a closeout DVD-R for my own use when I find one for <$200 as I have a compatible palyer and the disks and burners are cheaper for now. I've see OEM A03 for ~$250 on the web.

If you are willing to buy a new DVD player, get whichever you like for whatever reason as compatible players are easy to find now. But I recommend restricting your selection to players advertising DVD-R or DVD+RW compatability. The various lists seem to mean that someone somewhere once reported it as compatible, but all others of the same model may not be!

For example, HP lists my Zenith DVD2381 as DVD+RW compatible. When I tried the HP 100i back in October it glitched DVD+RW worse than DVD-R and it is, if anything worse, on DVCR-985 burned DVD+RW. What I find intresting is it seems to play DVCR-985 burned DVD+R fine as does my APEX AD-1500 although FF/REV is broke on it.

--wally.

[johnpr98]

davpen

You DVD experience seems to be the same as mine.

I reiterate that things have moved on since MSPro6.5 Ligos encoding, I have seen glitches with Ligos encoding, I haven't seen any gltches with the Ulead VS6 DVDWS MPEG codec or the ADS IDVD.

Compatibility with all DVD players can cause problems for commercial DVD's.

The new DVD players that don't support DVD-R are going to lose market share IMO.

Regards

John

http://www.johnpr98.com

[wkulecz]

Glitches in the encoding should be there on all players in about the same spot.

I've not counted these. What I'm talking about is playback freeze-frames or partial frame breakups into large video mosaic blocks, often times with audio defects as well. These are not in the same spot of the disk with different players, and often not in the same spot when the disk it re-inserted into the player.

If I can watch 30 minutes without seeing one of these glitches I'm willing to call the player compatible. So far DVD+R has passed on all three players I have continueous access to. Two of these three players glitch on DVD-R. Only one Plays DVD+RW. The two that glitch on DVD-R also don't play DVD-RW. I've not tried DVD-RW on the Sony 315 as I returned the DVD-RW blank I bought along with the A03 burner.

--wally.