DVD-R vs. DVD+R

[wkulecz]

I have three DVD players here now:

Sony DVP-NS315B -- It advertises DVD-R and DVD+RW compatiblity on the box.

APEX AD-1500 -- often claimed to "play anything with a hole it"
It certainly is very good for VCD and SVCD.

Zenith DVD2381 -- progressive scan, a useless feature for most people but the kind of thing salesmen then to push to sell something other than the cheapest player.

This is my wife's player. It was choosen over arguably better players because it has a 2X zoom that doesn't overlay anything on the screen (she hates the "band-aid view" of widescreen letterbox, an outstanding fast-forward/reverse using a jog dial with 2-100X zoom, and a remote with distinctive enough buttons and arrangement that it can be manipulated in a room too dark to read in by touch alone.

All three players work great on commercially pressed DVDs. If you want to argue picture quality, go at it, all three are definitely good enough for me, I'll stay out of it.


Back in October I tried the Pioneer A03 DVD-R burner. In summary I've found 7 of 32 players played my "best" DVD-R glitch free. Only 3 players rejected DVD-R with "disk error" or whatever.
There were two instances of nominally the same player, one from Sharp, the other JVC, where one player was glitch free, the other was not.

I want to make it clear that these glitches are not mosquito noise, block noise, or other mpeg2 encoding artifacts -- which aren't hard to find with any of the DVD authoring packages I've tried or Time-Warner digital cable channels or DirectTV broadcasts for that matter, so I'm not being overly critical.

The glitches I'm talking about are either a video mosaic breakup where some or all of the image breaks up into large blocks with colors unrelated to the adjacent video or a freeze-frame. The only way to miss them would be to not be looking at the screen, although most of the freeze-frames and a few of the mosaics cause the audio to dropout or "buzz" so you could detect these while in a another room if familar with the source material. I'm not talking about something subtle here.

People who watch a lot of DirectTV during rainstorms might think this is a normal part of the digital experience based on my experience with DirectTV while at the Radison Hotel in Portland, OR.

If I can watch 30 minutes of glitch free video on a burned disk I'm willing to call that player compatible.



Bear with me, the background info is finished, this is where it gets really intresting!


My "best" DVD-R result from October is a Meritline "noname" disk authored with Ulead DVD Movie Factory Trial. FF/REV and chapter navigation work correctly on all three of the above players. It plays glitch free on the Sony, has a repeatable video mosaic break up at ~20:35 on the Apex, and freeze-frames on the Zenith despite playing smoothly thru the 20:00 thru 21:00 section where the Apex glitches.

You can explain this result as: "non-compliant authoring and the Sony has forgiving playback" if you like.


Next I authored a DVD+R using an Ikebana external 1394 DVD+RW/R burner on HP DVD+R blank, 1hr 40 minutes of mpeg captured with ADS InstantDVD at 4000 Mbps. I made chapter points ~20 minutes apart with Ulead MSP6.5 DVD plugin and let the plugin burn the disk. This disk plays glitch free in all three players! FF/REV and chapter navigation also works correctly on all three.

You can explain this as: "Ulead has patched its DVD authoring several times since October" if you like.


I then copied the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS folders from the DVD-R to my hard drive using windows drag and drop. It seemed to play fine with PowerDVD although I did only a superficial playback test -- I do have only a finite amount of time to waste playing with this stuff. Computer playback of burned disks is not important to me, playback in standalone players is what I care about.

Next I used Nero 5.5.9.0 to "author" a DVD+R using the files from the DVD-R that I had copied to the hard drive. I choose "DVD Video" as the project type and dragged the contents of the VIDEO_TS directory to the VIDEO_TS folder in the Nero disk contents pane, changed the disk label to something more helpfull than "NEW" and burned the HP DVD+R blank at its 2.4X maximum.


I played back this DVD+R "copy" of the DVD-R in my Apex. Played fine but had the video mosiac glitch at ~20:35 same as the DVD-R!!! Didn't see any additional glitches in my 30 minute test. FF/REV and chapter nav worked as expected.

Put this DVD+R in the Sony which played it back glitch free with working FF/REV and chapter nav, same as the DVD-R "original".

Finally played this DVD+R in the Zenith, like the DVD-R it was copied from, no glitch at ~20:35, but what amazed me was no freeze-frame glitches during ~ 50 minutes of viewing! FF/REV and chapter have worked as expected.

Draw your own conclusions, but I think that the whole format war is a distraction to cover the fact that compatiblity of burned disks in existing players is just not very good!

Jerry Jones sent me a DVD-R authored with Ulead DVD Workshop. It played glitch free on my Apex and Sony, but freeze-framed badly on the Zenith. I may copy it to DVD+R next and see what happens.

[UPDATE, 9JUL02]
The DVD+R copy of Jerry's DVD Workshop authored DVD-R played perfectly in all three players. The original DVD-R freezed framed to the point of being unwatchable on the Zenith.
[end update]


So far, DVD+R seems "better" for the players I have on hand now, but I'm not willing at this point to claim its better or worse than DVD-R for the random players your audiance might have chosen to buy.

If you have a "compatible" player either format will make you very happy!

--wally.

[wkulecz]

Another Data Point

Tried the Zenith DVD2250 at my brother-in-laws house. This is old enough (2 Xmases ago) that I didn't expect either to work.
Its a horrid player, no features worth buying, and one of the worse laid out remotes I'd ever seen -- typical purchase of the non-enthusist shopper getting something "on-sale", he'd had many years of good service from a Zenith TV and thus "recognized" the brand name.

Jerry's DVD Workshop authored DVD-R started playing but freeze-frame glitched much like our Zenith 2283 does. The DVD+R copy of it was flat out rejected as was the Phillips DVCR-985 directly recorded DVD+R.


I'm still of the opinion it's the player. Some work with both, others work with neither, still others work with DVD+R but not DVD-R, and I expect vice-versa (but I haven't ran across one yet in the four players I've tried so far, nor have I yet had one reject both DVD-R and DVD+R).

I sure hope they get their shit together with "Blu-ray"!!


If you have a compatible player you'll be happy with either.

Seems logical if you might have to buy a compatible player to go with the cheapest burner/media, which is DVD-R now. Since my three players seem happy with DVD+R seems logical to stay with it -- but I'm not sure I want disks that only I can count on playing form a $500 burner. My goal is to make disks that I can expect to play correctly on what players people have, neither format may deliver this :-(

--wally.

[davpen]

I think I will be sticking with good quality name brand DVD-R for the immediate future.

Last night I was playing a DVD I had created using DVD Workshop, a Pionner A04 drive and a cheap DVD-R from CD-Recordable. The disc contained about a 150 minutes of video compressed at 3600 VBR. About 100 minutes into the playback, when I was starting to feel very confident about it all, the video and sound started breaking up badly. And I had just been about to purchase DVD Workshop to replace the trial version I had been using.

However I decided to try a different blank DVD to make sure it wasn't and encoding glitch. I used a Verbatim DVD-RW and recorded the same ISO image to it. And much to my relief the new disk sailed through the troublsome spot without a hitch. DVD Workshop is back on the purchase list.

What is interesting in this is that DVD-RW provides lower reflectivity and should be less compatible than any DVD-R. Of course the most likely explanation is that the DVD-R was faulty. However these cheap DVD-Rs also refuse to work on any of the PC DVD drives that I have. The above playback testing was done on a Pioneer 525 set top player by the way.

The moral of the story is don't use cheap DVD-Rs. At least for now. Undoubtably quality will improve as time goes by and maybe in 6 months or more cheap DVD-Rs will work as well as the name brand ones. I know that there have been some posts that report good results with some of the cheaper brands but as I live in Australia it is rather expensive to import small numbers of discs for testing.

By the way I am not suggesting that Wally's problems are media related. Although it may be a contributing facter there are real incompatibilities between some players and the various DVD formats.


Cheers,

David.

[wkulecz]

Even if 100% of the DVD-R glitching problems I saw are due to media, its still a showstopper for me. How the hell am I supposed to figure out what brand of blank will be compatible in a player that I didn't buy!

But note that the DVD-Rs I made in October played glitch free on a Pioneer DV343 then and a Sony NS315 now.

So far DVD+R has shown behaviour I can live with -- glitch free playback on three of three machines that accept the disks and reject with disk error on the incompatible player, but I'd certainly not bet the farm on this right now.


--wally.

[BrianP]

I will probably post a more detailed report later, but here are some of my preliminary findings in the great DVD-[wildcard] saga.

I have an A04. I encoded a 97 minute project using TMPGenc (2-pass VBR, 8000 max, 6000 avg, with color and contrast correction [took FOREVER to encode]). Authored the project in ReelDVD. Encoded the audio into AC3 files (done by ReelDVD). Burned in Prassi at 1x.

I burned a DVD-RW and a DVD-R. Both play flawlessly in my Pioneer 343. That shouldn't be surprising. Menu works, FF/RW works. Chapters work but chapter display always says "1" -- however this is a limitation of ReelDVD, not the format.

I brought the DVD-RW in to work and am handing it around to coworkers to test. The first result, on a Panasonic, was that it wouldn't play. However this is the same player that wouldn't play VCDs. Next week I'll have them test the DVD-R.

[Jerry Jones]

Here's are the facts of life with regard to recordable DVD, according to DV MAGAZINE's July 2002 issue:


1. The *3.95gb* DVD-R for *authoring* is the *most* compatible format, PERIOD.


This format achieves 96% compatibility.


But unless you have access to a $5,000 Pioneer DVR-S201 drive, you won't be able to use the AUTHORING discs.


2. The second most compatible format is the *4.7gb* DVD-R for authoring media.


This format achieves 67% compatibility.


Again, this media requires the $5,000 Pioneer DVR-S201.


3. The third most compatible format is either DVD+R (Sony, Philips, HP) authored by a DRIVE such as the HPDVD200i *OR* DVD-R for *general* authored by drives such as the Pioneer DVR-A04 or the Panasonic LF-D311.


These WRITE-ONCE formats achieve about 66% compatibility.


4. Both DVD+RW and DVD-RW trail in terms of compatibility with existing players.


In DV MAGAZINE's compatibility tests, DVD-RW achieved only 58% compatibility and DVD+RW achieved only 56% compatibility.


The compatibility improves drastically when older DVD players are eliminated from the test.


Here's what the author wrote regarding players:


"ONLY 10 PERCENT OF THE PLAYERS WE TESTED PLAYED ALL 39 DIFFERENT FORMAT AND BRANDS OF RECORDABLE MEDIA CORRECTLY."


"NONE OF THE PLAYERS WE TESTED FAILED TO READ ALL 39 TEST DISCS CORRECTLY."


"THIS MEANS THAT 90 PERCENT OF THE PLAYERS TESTED HAD INCONSISTENT RESULTS, PLAYING SOME FORMATS OR BRANDS OF MEDIA WELL BUT PLAYING BACK MARGINALLY ON OTHER FORMATS AND BRANDS OF MEDIA."


______



If you want to distribute DVD-R for general media, then you must advise your clients - up front - that there are potential compatibility problems that could hinge on the type of stand alone player they may happen to be using.


In DV MAGAZINE's tests, the brand of recordable DVD-R for general media MATTERED.


In other words, Maxell came out on top with a score of 80%.


Sony and TDK tied for second with scores of 76%.


Apple and Mitsui followed with scores of 73%.


Imation followed with a score of 71%.


Verbatim, Panasonic and Ridata followed with scores of 69%.


Vivastar followed with a score of 63%.


Memorex followed with a score of 59%.


Pioneer followed with a score of 58%.


Ritek followed with a score of 51%.


All of the above media scores were specific to DVD-R for general.


There were different results when it came to tests for DVD-RW and DVD+RW.


HP, Memorex and Sony tied with scores of 57% for DVD+RW discs.


Sony, TDK, Pioneer, and Verbatim all tied with scores of 61% for DVD-RW media.


General guidelines from DV MAGAZINE:


a. Use DVD-R for general (or DVD+R discs) if you can't afford DVD-R for authoring. Don't try to distribute DVD-RW or DVD+RW.


b. Use low to moderate bitrate encoding.


"Although most DVD players and DVD-ROM drives can read recordable DVD discs, these discs often have a higher error rate during playback than replicated discs do, causing the player to reread some data sectors. Using a low to moderate (less than 7mbps) data rate for video encoding will make the recorded disc a LITTLE easier to reread without a visible pause in the video playback, or audio dropout."


c. Use Maxell, Sony or TDK media.


d. If you choose to use off-brand media, record them at the lowest speed possible - 1X for DVD-R and DVD-RW, and 2.4X for DVD+RW. Using slower recording speeds increases the overall compatibility rating of off-brand media


I use Ulead DVD Workshop's 'high quality' DVD NTSC DVD template (CBR@8000) and I accept the fact that the discs produced at this quality level probably are going to find players out there that can't handle that data rate.


Wally reports two of his players handle it but a third does not.


I accept the fact that several players out there probably can't handle that high data rate, but I prefer to record at the higher quality level in the hopes that all of the hard work I put into an edited production will at least play as intended on a *significant percentage* of players.


If I knew in advance that it would be more important to cover the bases and increase compatibility, I probably would choose to reduce the quality level.


In the end, there IS NO WAY TO GUARANTEE COMPATIBILITY in the real world... in the JUNGLE that has been created by the various companies who are collectively responsible for this mess.


Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Sciascia]

WOW, great posts. This is what I am looking for, real hard numbers and real world experiences.

Thanks to all of you guys for the time to write these detailed posts. I assume the preferred meida is not the cheap ones either, bummer. Atleast I got some real answers finally.

[William]

Originally posted by Jerrold Jones
Here's are the facts of life with regard to recordable DVD, according to DV MAGAZINE's July 2002 issue:

In DV MAGAZINE's tests, the brand of recordable DVD-R for general media MATTERED.


In other words, Maxell came out on top with a score of 80%.


Sony and TDK tied for second with scores of 76%.


Imation followed with a score of 71%.


Memorex followed with a score of 59%.


Ritek followed with a score of 51%.

OK, I have to query these test results; since Memorex, Imation & TDK don't make their own media. TDK in fact simply badge Ritek media; (TDK closed all their optical disc pressing plants a while ago). Given the differences between Ritek & TDK media, this makes me worry about howreliable this test was.

[BrianP]

The DV article has been discussed ad infinitum on practically every DV-related board out there. (See the Inside DVD forum on dv.com for the "official" thread.) The issue of different sources has been raised, no question. There are a few other issues as well.

I don't mean to imply that the test was done poorly or is insignificant. Not at all. The information is highly valuable and it is obvious that great care was put into the study.

However, it is not the be-all, end-all statement on DVD compatibility. There are simply too many other variables. Plus, plain old testimonials by people who have been doing DVD recording professionally or semi-professionally seem at odds with the results (e.g. Pioneer media performing relatively poorly to the others).

[William]

Personally, I'd be looking to see if there were any adverts for TDK/Apple//lack of Memorex orPioneer ads in the magazine at this point, but that is just me being cynical

[dchip]

I guess I've been lucky with DVD-R so far.

I have shot two small weddings in the last month and delivered a DVD-R on both that has thus far been played by the Bride & Groom and various family members in Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony and Philips players. Played perfectly and look great every time according to the B&G.

I used Pioneer general purpose 4.7GB disks burned on Pioneer A04 using Dazzle DVD Complete to author.

The luck may be that all of the players have been new or of recent manufacture but I also have come to trust Dazzle DVD Complete for the authoring. It's simple and straightforward. Oddly enough, I didn't really tweak anything in it. I can't confirm it now but I think those disks are at CBR of 8,000Kbps. Of course both videos are about 1 hour and 15 minutes so I could afford the high bit rate. The audio is simple Mpeg layer II, or whatever it's called. Audio quality is quite good.

I am sure I'll hit a stretch soon where those calls start coming in saying there is something wrong with the disk. I did issue a disclaimer with both DVD-R that if playback is attempted in a player not specifically rated for DVD-R, compatibility is not guaranteed, nor can I remedy the problem.

[Jerry Jones]

William,

I'm going to "call" you.

Cite an official Web source that verifies your statement that TDK is simply "badging" Ritek media.

I request you provide a link to a credible source.

It's all over the net that TDK has Ritek producing CD media:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/tdkrecordingmediaeurope/

...but a TDK official is quoted as saying the CD discs are produced to a "strict" specification, meaning the production standards may be higher than on standard Ritek brand media.

But I've not seen anything credible regarding the question of whether TDK has Ritek producing DVD media as well.

In other words: PROVE IT.

I'm not disputing your claim, I'm just wanting to see some hard evidence.

Oh - and Brian - nobody is claiming DV MAGAZINE is the "end-all" where DVD compatibility is concerned, as you put it.

On the other hand, I cited the article because it - to date - has been one of the most serious attempts to share information BASED ON TESTS... not opinions.

Rather than your statement of the obvious, I wish you would offer a link to any other, half-way credible studies that have been done... preferably studies published in ENGLISH.

On the other hand, maybe you just don't know of any others.

:-)

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[William]

Certainly. You'll have to wait until I can find the relevant info (it's archived here, somewhere...). It's a email from TDK where they are queried about whether they are still producing CDs or not (based on the fact that the ATIP was identifying as Ritek). In the email TDK said that they were outsourcing their production to Ritek where there was now a "TDK quality" line -which they liked to think had more quality control than the Ritek "A" production line.
And that TDK were closing their factory in Georga, because it wasn't cost effective to maufacture their own anymore.

It's probably archived on one of the CD-R enthusiast sites, maybe CDRlabs. If nothing else, Google groups will turn up messages in alt.comp.periphs.cdr on the topic. Dunno if you'd consider this proof enough though.

[Jerry Jones]

At the risk of repeating myself, I request from you:

1. A hyperlink provided by you to a credible source
2. The source must confirm whether TDK has Ritek producing *DVD* media (and not just *CD* media)

Jerry Jones

[William]

Will you take a Usenet article from google groups? It quotes an email reveived from TDK.

Am I going to shut up now having read what I wrote about the "TDK quality" line at Ritek before I look like an idiot? Yup. As for the producing DVD media as well as CD media from them -TDK had only the Georgia plant to produce optical discs, and AFAIK they closed that.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22TDK+quality%22+Ritek&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&selm=39e68cb3.37173182%40netnews.worldnet.att.net&rnum=1