Problem with DV output with 6.51a update - a theory

[Nick Piercey]

Hi everyone,

Thought I’d start a new thread, because the other one had got a little “bogged down” with unnecessary “information”.


The Problem
Updating MSPro6.5 to 6.51a causes video to go to camcorder, but not audio.

The History
I have never been able to seamlessly capture via my Sony D8 using it as an A/D converter. MSPro will only do seamless capture if I am capturing from tape.

I had a version of Scenalyser (think it was the first XP version) that would not capture properly unless a tape was in my camcorder – I told Andreas and within a couple of hours he’d sent me a copy that worked. Something like Scenalyser couldn’t talk to my Sony properly or vice versa.

Recalling this is why I mentioned my Sony D8 in my original post. Jeff saying he had two Sony’s lead me to the following.

In MSPro6.5 – file/select device control/options says “supports DV Camera” and everything is fine.

In MSPro6.51a Sony does not show up at all.

However, file/export/ms dv recording does work in MSPro6.51a if you are recording to tape, but not if you’re just using your camera as a pass through.

So, in conclusion, something is wrong with the patch (i.e. MSPro6.51a does not interrogate the Sony correctly – all right – it could be Sony’s fault )

But as Andreas from Scenalyzer has shown, it’s very easy to solve.


I’ll pass on the relevant bits to European Tech Support tomorrow, Jeff Can you do the same in the States?


Hope this helps some folks.


Doc, Jerry if you can lay your hands on a Sony of any description could you please try and repeat these findings?


Cheers,


Nick.

[jeff b]

The device shows up the same in both 6.5 and 6.51a for me, with "supports dv camera". On 6.51a now, however, if I have either device on when I bring up Veditor, it no longer automatically has my device there. It says "none" for the device, and I have to select the device every time. In 6.5, once I've selected it in a session, every subsequent session will come up with it there (if it's on). If I bring it up with neither device on, then it will automatically go back to the preview window, with a "none" present in device control. Bring it up afterwards with either device on, and it's back.

So this difference in how the device control behaves, how it no longer loads automatically if it's on, probably has something to do with whatever has changed. The 6.51a version of Veditor isn't handling it the same way as it did in 6.5

Jeff B

[Debbie]

Yesterday I spent some time plying about with UMSP 6.51a and this is the result
on the following setup:

PIII 1 Gig.
Matrox Marvel G400 - TV
Creative Audigy this includes IEEE 1394 (Firewire)
256 Mb RAM
Via cipset
Tyan Trinity MB
Windows 98SE
Panasonic DV DS28

Digital Import/Export
---------------------
Video Capture module will import DV but will not export.
Video Editor module will export DV but will not export
from a set position on the clip, the whole clip will be exported.
The Camera brand name has been identified but not the model.
Camera manipulation via software OK.

Analog: No Problems Import/Export

Initialy the software would not recognize DV format but upon resetting
this has been cleared.

Debbie

[Jerry Jones]

I'm unable to duplicate the problems described here at home on my AMD 1.4ghz Athlon T-Bird system.

When I bring up Video Editor with my Canon ZR20 turned "on," it is correctly identified in the Export dialogue as a 'Canon' camcorder. (No model is listed, however.)

Export works fine.

When I use Video Capture, my capture window shrinks down to a 1 x 1 inch square.

So I have to first select the Ulead DWS plug-in and then switch it back to Direct Show plug-in and the capture window assumes its correct size and the camcorder is recognized.

I think this has always been a pain for Canon camcorder users.

But once I make the switch to the Direct Show plug-in everything works fine.

Since I use a Canopus DV Raptor at the office, everything there works as before.

I'll bring the camcorder I have at the office - the Sony DCR-VX1000 - home to see if everything works as well with it as it does with my Canon.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Nick Piercey]

Hi Everyone,


Doc,

Thanks, as ever, for your time.

Applied the command.

Playing from the timeline still has video on camera (after an unnerving delay) and sound on PC. This video delay is not right, as sound comes through straight away.

Export from MS DV recording still works to tape.

File/Select Device Control (MS Device)/Options lists no active device selections.

The more I think about it, I’m sure that Sony camcorders require a slightly different interrogation routine. I’m trying to recall what Andi from Scenalyzer said, but sadly the e-mail is long gone. I do know that when recording via my Sony with Scenalyzer, it knows whether there’s a tape in or not. Obviously this is fairly important as many buy Sony’s for their ‘pass through’ capabilities.


Jerry,

Thank you for making the effort to help with this ‘situation’. I look forward to your Sony report.



Doc, Jerry (anyone for whom 6.51a works),

Does File/Select Device Control (MS Device)/Options lists any active device selections? Just curious.

Jeff,

Do you have access to another make of camcorder? It would be interesting if your system was OK with anything other than a Sony!

I’ve e-mailed Euro Tech Support this morning, so I’ll add their thoughts to this thread when they get back to me.







Thank you all, once again,


Nick.

P'S. I've just spoken to Euro Tech Support. They say I'm the first to bring their attention to this problem and have asked me to call back in a few days, once their guys have had a look!

[Jerry Jones]

For what it's worth, here is a verbatim copy of the post made by David Gray to the MediaStudio Pro Users Group (MUG) e-mail list:

"Having originally complained that MSP6.51a caused me all sorts of problems and then reading how alot of you were not having these problems I decided to re-install MSP."

"The version I had had been upgraded from MSP 6.0 and all the
necessary patches added as they became available."

"I un-installed MSP and removed separately the ulead32.ini file."

"I then did a clean install of MSP 6 and then added the 6.5 upgrade."

"Instead of loading the MSP 6.5 patches that I had archived, I decided to download only those now showing on the ulead site, this included "DVD_PLUGIN_Patch_E_020606" which I installed first, followed by "Power Patch E" as this appeared to be the date order on the web site."

"Now appears to be working just fine and all the problems I had experienced originally with 6.51a were not evident I am pleased to report."

"Also loaded ViZkx plugin which also seems to work ok."

"I also upgraded ViZfx to v1.1 after un-installing v1.0 and again it appears to work just fine."

"Only tested it on the timeline from DV originally captured, using firewire, into Video Capture."

"By the way I am running Windows XP."

David Gray

[Nick Piercey]

Hi Jerry,

Uninstalled MSPro6.5, deleted ulead32 and msp ini's.

Rebooted
Reloaded.
Output fine.

Added DVD_PLUGIN_Patch_E_020606.
Output fine.

Added Power Patch E.
Back to square one with the split audio/video output.

Thanks for bringing my attention to David's post, though.


Regards,


Nick.

[Jerry Jones]

Ok.

I just returned from my house where I connected my Sony DCR-VX1000 to my AMD / MediaStudio Pro 6.51a system, which uses the ATI DV Wonder board based on an Agere Firewire chipset.

I opened MediaStudio Pro 6.51a with the Sony DCR-VX1000 turned "on."

I checked in the FILE>EXPORT>MS DV RECORD and - yes - it recognized my camcorder as a "Sony," but it did not list a specific model.

I then used the switch menu to open Video Capture and I captured a :30 clip.

I then used INSERT>VIDEO FILE in Video Editor to drop the clip into the timeline.

I made certain that Quick Play and Instant Play were not selected.

I clicked on the preview button and both the video and sound played out via 1394 back through the Sony DCR-VX1000's analog outputs to my external television monitor.

There was a text message in the preview window that said video frames were outputting to the DV camcorder.

Next, I selected instant play and the picture went to the preview window and the sound played through the computer speakers.

It worked properly.

The Macrovision theory is interesting, however.

Perhaps Macrovision is triggered only on *certain models* of Sony camcorders.

I suppose that's a possibility.

But it's not happening with my Sony DCR-VX1000.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Nick Piercey]

Hi Jerry,


Thanks for trying that out for me.

I remember the "frames outputting to DV" text from my XP days.
That doesn't happen at all.

Something which may or may not be connected - I mentioned in my original post that seamless capture only worked from tape (in 6.5) and not from pass through.

Now in 6.51a pass through seamless capture is fine.

I know this is irrelevant in these NTFS days that I'm now experiencing, but it does mean that something has changed in the communication between MSPro and my Sony camcorder.

Curiouser and curiouser.


Regards,

Nick.

[Nick Piercey]

Hi … again,


Another discovery.

In MSPro6.51a
File/select device control/MS device control/options gives me no selections in ‘active device’

However, in DVD Workshop
Select device control/MS device control/options gives me ‘SONY’ in the drop down list.

Could this be the root of the problem.

Why would Workshop recognise my Sony and not MSPro6.51a?


Nick.

P.S. I've tried unistalling Workshop to see if there was a conflict - still the same output problem with just MSPro6.51a installed.

[Jerry Jones]

I would be very interested to see if you could duplicate these problems if you had...

a. a newly formatted hard drive

...and...

b. *only* MediaStudio Pro 6.51a installed with no other software

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Nick Piercey]

Hi Jerry,


The more info I get the more I'm convinced it's a device control problem.

The evidence

DV output
6.5 works
6.51a doesn't

Seamless Capture via pass through
6.5 doesn't work
6.51a does

Active Device
'Sony' shows up in Workshop
Not in MSPro6.51a

The macrovision thing has got me totally stumped - what sort of info is passed along the dv cable to implement macrovision. Could this be triggered by a rogue device pulse (just guessing here).


I appreciate that 'format hard drive' is an option, but I see it as a last resort.
It's not something that I would undertake lightly - I have a ghost image, but that's got all my programs on, so is not particularly useful .

I also need my PC everyday for work, so weekends are the only days I would have enough time etc.

However, if all else fails!!!

Regards,

Nick.

[Jerry Jones]

Talk about weird software behavior.

I have a Pentium 4 computer with MediaStudio Pro 6.51a at work.

There - I could use QuickTime 5 to create Sorensen 3 encoded video without a problem.

Here at home, I have an AMD Athlon system running MediaStudio Pro 6.51a.

This AMD system also has Ulead VideoStudio 6.0 installed.

I could use VideoStudio 6.0 on the home AMD system to create QuickTime 5.0 Sorensen 3 compressed files without a problem.

However, no matter what I tried - MediaStudio Pro 6.51a would shut down if I tried to create video with the Sorenson 3 compression.

Just a while ago, I updated my home Athlon system to QuickTime 6.0.

PRESTO!

Now I can use MediaStudio Pro 6.51a and the Sorenson 3 compression without any problem! Go figure.

This isn't related to your problem, specifically.

But it illustrates how difficult to fathom some of these software difficulties can be... and how easy they can be to fix.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[jeff b]

At this point, I've sent a description of these problems to Ulead tech suppot.

Jerry:

the David Gray post that you cc'd here describes him setting up without the patch we're talking about. The two patches that he used are at least 6 months old. However, I did a fresh install of 6.5 and did the two patches that he references, just to see, and there's no problem on my system, either. Those patches are found in the "Ulead DVD Plugin" section, not the MSP section.

This is all most likely a Macrovision implimentation glitch, and although that's partially conjecture on my part, the cat is now out of the bag, so to speak. I've founded this assumption on the premise that Macrovision is a sticky animal, and it's been a thorn in the sides of programmers, tech support people, and all of us out here who do desktop video for as long as it's been around. The GOON SQUAD from Macrovision has been strong-arming the desktop video industry with litigation, and license forfeiture threats from codec license holders for a while, now.

If you have either a waveform monitor or an oscilloscope, part of the Macrovision protection scheme can be seen as four pulses that start below the pedestal and vary in intensity from the pedestal to 100 IRE, up and down, over the course of a few seconds. This is the part that makes the picture brighten and darken.

Another part of the Macrovision protection can be seen on a scope as a faint broken horizontal line at around 50 to 70 IRE. This is the "bars" of chroma that will show up on straight copied material.

These two components can be seen on a scope on any commercial tape that's Macrovision "encoded". On DVD's, however, there's more to this. DVD players have hardware Macrovision which is "triggered" by encoding within the digital file on the disk. This digital encoding, which can't be seen on a scope (as far as I can see) is not stripped out by color correctors such as the Sima SCC, nor is it stripped out of any streams that are captured in MSP. The encoding is faithfully played back on raw clips up through MSP6.5. If, however, the captured clip with the encoding is re-rendered into a new file, this digital encoding is, apparently, lost (at least on DV), up through MSP6.5.

MSP6.51a, I am assuming, is where we get this little loophole closed...

This digital encoding is recognized by most hardware (other than VHS VCR's) for playing video at this time. DVD players, when they detect this digital encoding, turn on their built in hardware Macrovision circuitry and ADD the two Macrovision components that I described above, and which can be seen on a scope. VHS tapes simply have those two components already there on the tape.

Macrovision has been very diligent in tracking down those products that can bypass the protection scheme, and desktop video products are high on the list of their "evil copiers". Consequently, DVD burner products (hardware, and most especially software) are getting a lot of pressure in retaining licensing for various MPEG encoders right now.

I have no quarrel with Macrovision protection for copyrighted material. This is not a problem for me. But under no circumstances will I sit still and have Macrovision digital encoding inserted into MY original material without my consent! I'm taking the position that Ulead has merely missed the correct sequences for not turning on Macrovision in my Sony camcorder and converter with the 6.51a patch, and that this little glitch will be handled eventually.

Jeff B

[Jerry Jones]

I'm glad you're sending this theory to Ulead for a close-up study.

It's certainly possible.

However, I still would be very curious to observe the behavior of a freshly formatted hard drive loaded *only* with MediaStudio Pro 6.51a and no other software.

Would it work on any of these problem systems?

Yes or no?

That is the burning question.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net