Optical advance by Toshiba and NEC

[paulw]

Saw this in my local news paper today but I can't find any other info on NEC or Toshiba's sites. Anyone know of it??

"27.08.2002 7.40 am

Toshiba and NEC have developed a new optical disk to rival a standard proposed by nine manufacturers, including Sony and Matsushita.

The new disk, with enough capacity to store about 25 hours of standard television broadcasts, will be compatible with drives in current DVD and CD players. "

[Dr Mordrid]

This is another standards fight in the making, this time over blue-laser DVD formats.

The problem is that ostensibly one cannot store enough bits on a DVD disk for HDTV content using the current MPEG-2/650 nm laser setup.

Most companies response to this has been to create a new standard using blue lasers, and of course everyone has a bright idea how to go about it. This time it's Toshiba and NEC against Sony and everyone else.

The Toshiba-NEC disk would be slightly smaller in capacity but cheaper to produce than the standard proposed by the Sony group because it would allow the continued use of some current hardware used in DVD production. This changeover will be very expensive either way....and you know who will pay for all the new hardware these companies will have to purchase in the end; especially when it comes time to buy a new disk

Others propose a different solution: MPEG-4.

When using the HD profiles already in the MPEG-4 standard one can easily fit movie-length HDTV content on the current red laser DVD disks. A lot of firmware companies are putting MPEG-4 decoding into their DVD products, no small part due to the DVD Forum approving MPEG-4 for use on DVD disks last Feb.

This was pushed through by content providers on the DVD Forum steering committee. This was led by Warner Brothers and approved by an 11 to 3 vote with 3 abstentions: Philips, JVC and Matsushita. This move done to delay the expenses involved in switching over to blue-laser technology.

In hindsight it looks to me to be a good move given that HD isn't catching on as fast as the manufacturers had hoped and the blue-laser standards fight starting up.

Downside: either way if you want HD content you have to buy a new deck.

MPEG-4 will likely only delay blue-laser by a few years, but at least the initial $$ shock won't be as severe.

Dr. Mordrid

[paulw]

It finally appeared

http://www.nec.co.jp/press/en/0208/2901.html

[Brian Ellis]

Has anyone thought what an HD camcorder will look like? The basic difference will be in the CCD(s). As the pixel density is already close to current practical limits, for a 10 x increase in pixels, you will need an 8 x (at least) increase in CCD area, let's say 3 x increase in diagonal, in round figures. This means that the focal length of the lens will have to be 3 x longer, so to obtain the same aperture, the diameter will increase likewise and, all other things being equal, the weight by about 9 x. However, all things are not equal, because the lens would have to better be than the current moulded plastic bottle-bottoms and we are going to have to move up a further notch with more precision-ground and lapped glass elements, so pushing the weight and price up by another few notches. I don't think anyone would disagree that the initial price will be high, probably in the 10+ grand ball park. IF they take off, economy of scale will reduce the price, but I cannot foresee anything much less tha $3k. OTOH, I have a feeling that this economy of scale will never kick in.

I think that those of us who are not professionals will never be able to afford this.

Furthermore, what will such camcorders record on and in what format? Blue laser-DVD-RWs with either MPEG-2 or MPEG-4? How will we be able to edit etc? I'm not talking about hardware, although that will be a challenge. I'm talking about editing a highly compressed format and re-rendering, remembering that all the artifacts will become even more visible and annoying on HD screens.

Let's not get too excited, guys, we have a very long and rough path to travel before we can even start to think about swapping our mini-DVs or whatever.

[Dr Mordrid]

Current DV cams capture at 720x480: 355,200 pixels

HDCAM captures at 1920x1080: 2,073,600 pixels

This is a 5.8:1 ratio, not 10:1 and yes, these CCD's already exist. If they don't then Sony has been using imaginary 2/3" HD CCD's for several years in their HDCAM products.

Granted these 3 CCD HDCAM's are expensive ($65,000 list for the cheapest one) but a consumer HD format using single CCD's will eventually come as people get HD at home and want camcorders to match. The market finds a way....

Terry

[Brian Ellis]

OK, Doc, perhaps 2.67:1 diagonals and not 3:1, as most camcorders currently use 1/4" CCDs (a few 1/3"), but the arguments remain valid. And all the other bits and pieces will be subjected to the 5.8:1 ratio, when it comes to datarates.

Yes, I believe it may come, but the image quality will be very non-pro, rather like VHS for current formats, because so many compromises will have to be taken. My gut feeling is that we'll be more satisfied sticking with current formats for at least a further decade (for amateur videoing).

I can't remember (I'm old ) how long it was since the first reasonably compact pro/consumer cameras hit the market with VHS-C, possibly about 20 years ago??? Today, we can still buy VHS-C camcorders. I was one of the first to go for mini-DV in 1995. If 20 years is the lifespan of a format, that means mini-DVs will still be available in 2015 (at a ridiculous price!) as bottom-of-the range. This will hamper the development of a market for a new format, just as mini-DV took 5 years to really take off in a big way. I believe mini-DV will remain the mainstream format for as long as we have 720 pixel-wide TV.

All I know is that if I'm still alive when HD becomes the mainstream amateur video format, I'll eat 250 g of boiled green broccoli, and I can hardly think of anything worse However, I think I'm pretty safe, at my age!

[Greebe]

I'll eat 250 g of boiled green broccoli, and I can hardly think of anything worse

Boiled Brussel sprouts perhaps?