Which camcorder?

[dchip]

The Canon Elura (NTSC) has a full slate of video ins and outs. You will notice that the features on this little camera seem to parallel a lot of professional cameras. Progressive scan, optical image stabilization, 12x optical and 48x digital zoom, which may seem conservative, but I tell you it really works. You can get great hand-held video anywere in the zoom range. OIS at work again.

I was not impressed with the 120x or greater digital zoom on the consumer Sony mini DV models. A neurosurgeon couldnt't steady the camera well enough for that to be useful. Even on a tripod, vibration from the earth and the camera itself seems to shake up the image. As for zero-lux shooting, printers and other gimmicks, again, no use for me. When I decide to shoot the mating habits of the opossum or become a private eye, perhaps I will get a Sony.

I do not wish to offend or alienate any Sony mini DV owners. I am sure you get fine video from your cameras, but in my research and checking these things out in stores it just seems that Sony went with too much electronic digitery on features that could have been made rock solid with the tried and true processes that Sony's professional models contain. Although it has but one CCD, Canon decided to build its little Elura to work like a pro.

[This_Idiot]

Yeah DChip, BUT the Elura isn't available in Europe - and if it was then would either be nEUtered (DV-in disabled) OR would carry a premium of several hundred bucks. Currently factory-enabled cams run at between £300 and £500 UK extra for a similar non-enabled model.

When I did my research back in May, there were no enabled DV cams under £1,000 ($1,600 US). Some of the nEUtered cams can be enabled either by using the factory service codes on the remote handset, or by using "widgets", or by using a PC with suitable software and cabling.

[Pace]

I have been looking at some cameras today and have some more questions, but first, some more info.

It's a wedding present from my parents to a niece. A rather nice present actually ! So, budget tops out at £1,000 (~$1,600 but with US prices probably ~$1,200-1,400). We are (almost certainly) going with DV (or rather miniDV - is there a highend/pro DV?). There are mainly Sony, JVC, Panasonic and few Canons. We saw a JVC GR-DVL9200 which we liked and was exactly at the top of the budget. Also a Sony at £750 which was D8 and a Canon was in a catalogue model (I think) was MV20 or 30. The gift-receiver doesn't have a PC at the moment but probably will soon though video-editing itself will probably be beyond them. Stills however, would be nice.
The JVC did have a still facility but no removable storage. The Sony used memory sticks. I'd personally like a removable still storage but being able to take hundreds still pictures with a camcorder isn't really a major point for us.

Some more Q's:
What are the resolutions of D8 and DV?
How much would a 60 minute tape cost?
Can you get tapes longer than 60 mins?
How common is S-Video in on TVs?
If tapes are expensive then I think they'll transfer their videos onto VHS - I presume that this will be better quality than VHS-? to VHS but is there any point having a high-res DV cam is we are limited by VHS for archives?
Or should we store all videos on DV tapes?
Anyone know approx. Canon model numbers like the 'Elura' for the UK?

Ok, that's it for now! Thanks again,

Paul.

PS: I'll be sure to pick up your mag Chris if I plan to get into DV on my PC ! Do you write every issue?

[intomisery]

Have y'all forgotten the brilliant Canon XL-1?
Just a thought

-Brett

[jeff b]

I've been very happy with my Sony TRV-900 for the past 9 months.

Jeff B

[ninetto]

The European version of the Elura is called MV20, and here in Italy it costs about 1250$
I've seen on canondv.com that in the States there'll be soon an Elura2, which seems to differ only for a bigger lcd monitor and a flash card like the Sony's ones.
Anyway the MV20 it's just like the Elura, it only differs in the lack of dv and analog-in.
It is shipped also in a MV20i version, with the dv-in enabled, 250$ plus.
The intersting point here is that you don't need to buy a widget to enable dv-in in the MV20, just find 4 hidden buttons in the remote control and press them in the correct sequence.
More about it here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~bbouwens/dv/

[CarterTG]

I noticed the Elura2 on <A HREF="http://www.canondv.com/" TARGET="_blank">CanonDV</A>'s site a few days ago and aside from miniaturizing it considerably, it doesn't seem like they've done much to grant us the features we really want. The original Elura had an optical stabilizer, the Elura2 goes with an electronic one. The Elura allows using batteries compatible with the GL1 and XL1. The Elura2 looks to have some proprietary flat/wide Li-Ion pack. The wind-prone microphone sits along the top like the original, but they finally added a mic-in jack to the Elura2. The Elura required a docking station (DU-200) for that. The Elura2 seems to include one in the kit (DU-300). The pricier version called the Elura2 MC includes a slot for a MultiMediaCard, but from the PDF, I can't tell if it's a proprietary card or a rebadged SmartMedia. The Elura2 has an RGB filter like the original, so it should provide pretty good color reproduction for a 1-chip camera. <A HREF="http://www.dvdirect.com/" TARGET="_blank">DV Direct</A> has it entered in their product pages, but it won't be due till September. The size shrinkage is impressive, but backpedaling from OIS to EIS and foisting yet another proprietary battery packaging isn't. Aside from the Elura2 maintaining the RGB filter, I don't see too many differences compared to their (equally small but lackluster) ZR-10. - rant mode OFF -
I've been thinking about a secondary camera to the XL-1, so I'm also in a shopping/browsing mode. Both Elura2 and ZR-10 have kicked themselves off the contender list with the EIS feature... and I'd prefer to juggle only one set of batteries, so I think the list boils down to the Elura and the GL-1. Between the two, each have their very specific pros and cons, so the decision hasn't been made yet. Yes, the GL-1's got a stellar picture, but then the Elura's unique size would allow for some creative camera placement in difficult situations. And if the Elura found itself falling off a boom rig while hanging out a car window , it would only be a tiny bit less painful than having a semi-trailer crush a pricier $2300 GL-1... but then again, that wonderful 3-chip picture...

P.S. Can anyone speculate on how the picture from a 1-CCD <A HREF="http://www.elmo-corp.com/" TARGET="_blank">Elmo</A> Cam might compare to the Elura's picture?

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Carter
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Tyan Tiger 100 rev.F (BX) ATX
Dual PentiumIII 650e CuMine Slot1
Dual 128mb PC100 generic
[C:] 10.2g Seagate ATA66 5400rpm
[D:] 10.1g IBM ATA66 7200rpm
Promise FastTrack66 RAID
[E:] Dual 30.7g Maxtor ATA66 7200rpm DM+
[F:] Plextor 12x10x32x CDRW
Dual SVGA 17" screens
Matrox G400 DualHead AGP 32mb
SBLive PCI
NDC 10/100 PCI
Canopus DV Raptor
USB IntelliEye
FourPoint2000
Windows2000 wo/SP1
Canon XL1

[This message has been edited by CarterTG (edited 11 August 2000).]

[dchip]

OT: Finally a banner ad worthy of a NLE site. That Copernic ad is pretty slick.

Jeff, the TRV900 is definately excepted from the portion of the Sony lineup I was referring to. I should have said that right away. It says it itself, because there are those features again: Optical Image Stabilization, Progressive Scan, 12x optical & 48x digital zoom, and of course the 3CCD's far seperates it, and seperates it from the Elura also. If you look up Sony's VX2000 you'll find those same optic numbers (undoubtedly with even more precise components inside).. I am just happy about the Elura because it has those pro capabilities and fit my budget too.

Intomisery: Your GL-1 is not forgotten by me. It was my dream Canon. Congrats if you own one.

[jeffw]

Okay Sony bashers and lovers:
What's your take on the TRV-20?
I like it's features, but what about its picture?
It's got a mega-pixel CCD. That's good and bad. It takes good stills, but I think it needs lots of light. Because there are so many sensors on the CCD, they're smaller and require more amplification and consequently there is more noise unless there is lots of light. Does "HAD" really help?
Since 704x480=338K, is a 340K CCD enough for a good DV picture? (I would think certainly for a 3-CCD, but how about for 1-CCD where colors have to be computed for each pixel?)
Is 600k better?

[dchip]

jeffw, my opinion: Get a DVCam with Optical Image Stabilization. $1300 to $1600 is an awful lot of money for all those pixels that probably make the TRV20 a better digital camera than DVCam.

[Pace]

Well then - I've got another few answers but some questions still remain unanswered.

From the previous (heated? ) discussions on DV and D8 I think that they both have the same resolution? Is this right? Sales-persons (bah!) all seem to think that D8 and DV are of the same quality - no resolution difference which they say is 500 lines (hmm, are camcorders always quoted in lines only - I'm used to working with columns x rows)

A 60 minute miniDV tape (suitable for LP) is £20 - so I don't think my cousin will be storing all her videos on DV tapes! They are just a basic user but would probably mess around with stills as I've said. So, if there is any difference between D8 and miniDV (in the budget market anyway) would it be pointless choosing a high-res one when they will be putting it onto low-res VHS? Please tell me if I'm missing something or making glaring errors!

And how much more important is optical image stabilisation than electronic i. s.? I've yet to see OIS on any camera so far - and I believe I've seen the Canon MV20 specs - I'll check it out again though.

Thanks again for the help and recommendations,

Paul.

Edit: I've now found a statement from the 'Doc' (here) that says the D8/DV res is 720x480.

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[This message has been edited by Pace (edited 11 August 2000).]

[Dr Mordrid]

D8 and DV both use the same frame size, 720x480, but do not resolve the same number of line per inch.

D8 hangs out in the 300-350+ lpi range while DV is usually in the 450-500+ range, depending on the lens and CCD used. Sony could do better but....

Purely a marketing decision.

I confirmed this myself some time ago using both the EIA and U.S. Air Force lens test patterns with Sony, Panasonic and Canon cams.

Dr. Mordrid


[This message has been edited by Dr Mordrid (edited 11 August 2000).]

[This_Idiot]

DV tapes may be expensive in the high street, but take a careful look around (use the small ads in Camcorder User, Computer Video etc) and you'll find that you can buy 3 Panasonic 60 min tapes for a tenner. No, not a misprint ! The only snag is that you have to spend £5 per order on P&P, so you'll want to order several at a time.

[Patrick]

I love re-reading those old threads like the one that Paul has pointed out.

I wonder whatever happened to Grigory. He was always a wealth of information, usually served up with a good measure of dry Russian humour.

[jeffw]

What's the consensus on the Canon Ultura?
It's cheap ($688), and has optical image stabilization. And the microphones are in front, so maybe the sound is better than those with mics on top? DV in/out. color LCD AND viewfinder. Mic and headphone terminals. It looks like there's no analog in, but I think I can live with that for the price.
Even has manual controls (focus, exposure, white balance, and shutter speed)!
But, it's not on Pyro's "supported" list.
Is there a compatibility problem?
Does it work with other (cheap) DV cards?