HUFFyuv

[dizzynoodle]

HI,
sorry to sound a lil' behind ! but what is the benifit of using the HUFFyuv capture over the MJPG [Marvel 200] ? Is it better quality ? smaller files ? Guidance is appreciated. Thanx

[Fred H]

Good question, dizzynoodle.
You can find a useful reading here: http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/Forum2/HTML/004666.html

I tried to capture YUY2 and HuffYUV compression with different capture programs in combination with my Marvel G400 (VideoTools 1.52) and AMD K6/2-400 hardware.
-PC-VCR doesn't work at all with YUY2, so HuffYUV is not supported,
-AVI_IO: I could only capture uncaompressed YUY2 but I'm unable to get the YUY2 compressed with HuffYUV. (AVI_IO uses the Marvel capture drivers).
-Ulead Video Capture 6.0: the same as AVI_IO.
The experts say that it should work, with Marvel G200/G400, but I gave up to continue further testing. I am quit happy with the MJPEG hw compression.
-Only Virtual Dub lets me capture YUY2/ HuffYUV combination. But HP of my system seems to be too weak.
I was convinced, after a lot of advices and ideas from the experts, that my hardware is faulty, until I found at http://www.math.berkeley.edu/~benrg/huffyuv.html, about the limitations of the HuffYUV, this :

"...Some capturing programs (including ATI's Multimedia Center) do not support external compressors and hence can't be used with Huffyuv. If you're using one of these, I recommend switching to Avery Lee's free, GPL'd VirtualDub. (Even if you're not using one of these you should probably switch anyway, since VirtualDub is a lot better than any bundled capture utility.)..."

MSP6 supports HuffYUV, maybe Premiere too, but what's the advantage of the HuffYUV if the capture is so difficult ?

For a couple of days ago, I received an e-mail fom a respectable expert in video capture. Let me quote from this e-mail the following:

"...Capturing in MJPEG and transcoding from there also can give pretty good results. Not too long ago there was no huffyuv codec and back in those times, most people did it this way including myself. Although huffyuv IS in fact a good codec, the difference is IMHO not viewable to all people. It takes some experience to find artefacts, and those which are enjoying a movie or fammiliy video don't scan the picures for artefacts..."


Fred H

[wkulecz]

I've not yet tried HUFFyuv, but in AVI_IO after you set the capture in video format dialog to YUV, there is a seperate compression dialog under Video Settings. If HUFFyuv doesn't appear there, the codec hasn't been "installed" correctly.

To me, the difference between MPEGs made from Marvels "best" MJPEG vs 353x240 uncompressed captures is as obvious as the difference between VHS dubbed onto VHS at SLP speed versus VHS originals recorded at SLP. Neither is that great, but the difference is obvious!

The claim is that HUFFyuv gets the data rate down to something tolerable from the ~18MB/sec of 640x480 yuv captures wihtout introducing "noise" from the lossy compression of MJPEG. VCD format MPEG1 made form these sources can approach the quality of VHS originals recorded at SP. I've seen short VCD format clips made form uncompressed 640x480 captures and they are quite impressive, but the process is too tedious for me.

--wally.

[Dr Mordrid]

Oh yeah. The K6/2-400 Super7 type systems are, IMHO, not high enough in horsepower to do this properly. This is best left to the PIII/Celeron-II/Athlon/Duron crowd at high resolutions, although a C466 or C500 system could do for lower rez's.

As far as the quality goes it's obvious here too;

If I encode MJPeg to MPEG for VCD or SVCD at the highest quality settings and freeze an I-frame you'll always see a lot of quilting (blockiness) and load of Gibbs artifacts ("fuzz" around objects or text).

If I capture the same footage using YUY2/HuffYUV and encode to MPEG using the same settings the results are far better and plain as the nose on your face.

Dr. Mordrid

[dizzynoodle]

thnax guys for your posts, i still did not get to understand the benifits of using HUFFYUV or similar over hardware codec like Marvel M-jpg[even thru the references suggested]. I would like to use the same [Huff] if it offers my work better quality and if it is stable.

[Brian Ellis]

Hi!

I've not used anything but the MJPEG/Marvel, haven't tried Huffy & Co, although I've downloaded it for trials when I have time. However, I don't even really have that much motivation. Why? Because the MJPEG is essential if you want to record to VHS, which is what I do most of the time. In any case, the VHS quality would mask any significant quality improvement. I have two other apps: creating Real files for web site streaming and the quality of that bears little comparison with even the worst thing you can produce with any type of Codec. The other is CD video, as opposed to VCD, where the viewers look at it on a monitor. I use 1/4 size video for that to squeeze 40 to 50 minutes of medium quality codec-ed video (usually Indeo 5.1) onto a CD-R. OK, it's not brilliant and you can see artefacting from time to time, but what the hell!

Anyway, my point is simple: what do you want out of your system? If you want a near-perfect full-size image and have the hardware to benefit from it, to produce near-pro quality video, well and good. If your output is of lesser quality, then why bother?

------------------
Brian (the terrible)

[Fred H]

Aahh, Oohhh, hahaha...
now it works,the huffyuv, but it's a very strange process to set the compression, for YUY2, in AVI_IO to any other than "No recompression".
It was a challange to get it work with my Marvel G400 (VidCap), and it's still unstable. Here is the way I went, step by step. Maybe just typical in my system, but who knows, it can be useful for others.
The codec must be installed first via the huffyuv.inf file.(http://www.math.berkeley.edu/~benrg/huffyuv.html)

1-Made the File/Capture settings as usual.

2- Set the video Format to RGB 8/16 or 24. No matter which of them.

3- Went to the Compression dialog (yes, wkulecz, I know there is a separate dialog, but I couldn't change it from the "No recompression" )
Now, accepted the compression suggested by the dialog. For me it was only the "Indeo video 5.06" depending of my system.ini.

4-Let AVI_IO initiate the RGB Format. I used a TV channel as Source.

5-Went back to the Format dialog and now I set the YUY2 and a Video size (352x288 PAL).

6-Continued to Compression dialog, again, and her you can find the Huffyuv v 2.1, if everything is right. Not for me. My Windows system.ini contained the "wrong" order of the mpeg4 v1 v2 and v3 codec for YUY2 before the Huffyuv codec. It wasn't a problem for Virtual Dub, but AVI_IO did find only the first one in the list, which was the mpeg4, here.
Arranged the system.ini something like this:

[drivers32]
...
VIDC.HFYU=huffyuv.dll
VIDC.MP42=mpg4c32.dll
...

and voila, the AVI_IO was forced to huffyuv compression. Note: only through the step 2, 3, 4. (??? )

7-Important to "Save as..." the settings, something other than the avi_io.ini. I saved it as avi_io_huff.ini.

8-Every time you want to capture huffyuv compressed YUY2, you probably must load the avi_io_huff.ini file. Check if the Compression dialog is holding the huffyuv.
That's all. Easy. Isn't it?

What, did I invent the wheel? Ooh, no. Nobody told me before, about this strange, tedious method in AVI_IO, an otherwise very nice capture program, to accept huffyuv compression.

Now, it is an other question, and I am conscious of it, that some systems are not high enough in horsepower to use YUY2/huffyuv. Try and cry. The test captures, made by me, in 352x288 PAL are pretty good, encoded to MPEG1 (Tsunami), but the audio is not the best one for me, which is also hardware related.
My curousity is, now, satisfied and I'll close, this huffyuv paragraph in my video capture adventure, but I'm wondering why those unnecessary steps described above?

Fred H.

[Dr Mordrid]

My steps;

1. Installed AVI_IO (done months ago )
2. Installed HuffYUV (updated whenever)

3. Start AVI_IO
4. Set file location, name & file size
5. Set YUY2 as the Format and select frame size
6. Set HuffYUV as the Compression.
7. Set HuffYUV codec options as YUY2/FAST
8. Capture
9. Load into MSPro
10. Edit
11. Export as HuffYUV in 2gig segments if necessary
12. MPEG encode w/Tsunami at Super-high quality

Only 1 extra step over and above a "normal" capture: #7. You have to do #6 anyhow to select the codec and frame size that that project.

NO system.ini or ulead32.ini changes necessary over and above what the HuffYUV *.ini file does to install the codec.

Using RGB is redundent and hard on system resources, making your efforts need even more processor resources and limiting the frame sizes you can capture. Why?

Because the Marvel captures in YUY2 to start with then encodes it to RGB. By then re-encoding RGB to HuffYUV you're causing the CPU to do double the work and trying to do it in realtime.

If you want apples, to go the tree. Don't try to reconstitute applesauce.

Dr. Mordrid


[This message has been edited by Dr Mordrid (edited 28 August 2000).]

[Fred H]

Thanks,
I installed AVI_IO trial, then reinstalled the trials twice. Nice program, I like it.

I did NOT capture between my steps 4-5, just forced AVI_IO or maybe my lazy hardware to understand things...

I have only one apple tree in my garden and one pear too. It's not much, to make souce of them, so I'll eat them before. And I never mix apple and pear at the same time, because...

Now, up to new adventures...

Thanks again, everybody

Fred H

[This message has been edited by Fred H (edited 28 August 2000).]

[Kino]

Doc Mordrid,

What kind of HD benchmark do you need to capture YUV / HuffYUV? (Sorry, I'm just reading about this for the first time and it's a detail I haven't picked up yet.)

Btw, I'm running a decent machine (P3 667, 256Mb RAM, etc.) I own a Maxtor DM+ 10Mb drive, and intend on picking up the DM+ 40 at some point (unless Quantum can come up with a comparably sized drive) for vid capture.

Do I need a Fastrack card or some such device to get the drive speeds up? Or will the 8Mbps benchmarks that I typically get with the 10Mb drive suffice?

Thanks.

K