New info on Vegas Video 4

[vlad the inhale]

I know that MSPro is the NLE of choice around these parts, but some of you may find the screenshots of the new Vegas 4 at the following site intersting nonetheless. Note the color correction tools and the apparently integrated DVD authoring:

http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/vegas.htm

There are rumors that this will go into public beta sometime this month, SOFO's current troubles notwithstanding. If this ever sees the light of day, it looks like the gap between Premiere and its closest competitors is going to just keep getting wider. Premiere 7 had better be something special.

[wkulecz]

Unless they've removed their WPA-like hardware locked activation scheme I'm just not intrested.

--wally.

[Jerry Jones]

For me, the biggest turn-off about Vegas isn't about...

1. ...Sonic Foundry's basket-case finances:

http://www.madison.com/captimes/business/stories/38885.php

2. ...or the fact Vegas was originally designed as a multi-track AUDIO program (video features were GRAFTED-IN after the fact)

3. ...or the fact that Sonic Foundry still lags behind the DVD authoring capabilities of competitors (Vegas has none currently)

4. ...or the stupid Sonic Foundry WPA-like locked activation scheme

5. ...or its inability to work with the vast majority of 3rd party plug-ins

Instead...

...it's the way the Vegas users flock to a particular forum...

...and pounce on Adobe Premiere...

...and beat it bloodier than a baby seal...

...throw out all kinds of erroneous information...

...and then gang up on anything or anybody that dares to CONTRADICT or CORRECT their inaccuracies.

Sure it's okay to criticize Premiere; Premiere deserves to be criticized.

But it's 'how' that minority of Vegas users do it.

The biggest problem with VEGAS is that small minority of ill-informed, rude, and bigoted users.

If Sonic Foundry could do something about them, the product might actually gain a following.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Jerry,

I spent some time in that Vegas forum a while back. It can get pretty nasty if you mention an editor besides Vegas.

Mark

[vlad the inhale]

Yep, if only Vegas fans were as open-minded to the virtues of Premiere and other editors as, say, MSPro fans, things might be really different . . .

[Jerry Jones]

Vlad,

Honestly, your remark is so off-base.

I was truly impressed by one aspect of Vegas:

The code writers did a very clean job of writing the Vegas capture module.

For that alone, I was seriously considering a purchase of Vegas.

But it was the horrible attitude of that minority of Vegas users...

...and especially their factual errors...

...that persuaded me not to buy.

Well, I'll admit the WPA-like hardware locked problem also ranked pretty high as a reason not to buy.

I'm probably one of the biggest fans of Ulead MediaStudio Pro in existence.

But even I'm looking around for a 2nd NLE... just for fun and to learn something new.

For a short time, I was considering Vegas.

But not now.

I'm now considering in-sync's new BLADE 2.0.

It looks great on paper...

...with its support for Panasonic's hot new AG-DVX100 camcorder and 24p.

http://www.in-sync.com

Now that's an advanced feature.

:-)

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[vlad the inhale]

Given the amount of Premiere-bashing that goes on in this forum(and many, many others), I guess I was just surprised to hear that you consider Premiere-bashing at the Cow Vegas forum to be unusual (it's certainly never struck me as being so), let alone a reason not to purchase Vegas.

I'm also surprised to hear that you really wouldn't buy Vegas -- or any other program -- because you don't like the attitude of some members of its online community. I mean, gosh, if I refused to buy every computer-related product that had obnoxius fans who posted obnoxious messages online, well, I'd probably be trying to figure out how to edit video on an abacus right now. But to each his own :-)

As for my personal views of Premiere (since I did a little bashing of my own to kick off this thread): I think it's a good, but not great, program, and I think it comes in for a lot of unfair criticism online. But Adobe seems awfully complacent about developing it, and when (if?) Vegas 4 and MSPro 7 come out, Premiere 6.5 will be a good generation behind its closest competition.

As for Vegas . . . I use it in precisely the manner you considered using it -- as a second NLE -- and am very happy with it in that role. If you aren't bothered by the unconventional interface (a big if, for some people), then there really is a lot to like. It's perfect for making music videos and other shorts, but suffers, IMO, on longer form projects. And it is, by far, the most stable and most tightly coded piece of video software I've ever used -- in fact, it's the only piece of video software I currently own that doesn't just flake out every now and then. Whatever becomes of SOFO, I hope their software team stays relatively intact, because someone writing code in Madison really knows what they're doing.

[Jerry Jones]

Well, you really shouldn't be surprised that my interest in Vegas has faded due to the behavior of the Vegas crowd.

The reason has to do with credibility.

If the most vocal proponents of a given software package routinely make inaccurate technical statements and make wild claims that aren't grounded in reality, it makes the 'gamble' on a new software package less attractive.

I'm like a lot of people who are video enthusiasts.

I don't like to toss money away for a 'second' NLE unless I'm certain I'm really going to get something that's new and interesting.

The Vegas crowd doesn't just bash Premiere.

They bash Ulead MediaStudio.

They bash Avid.

They bash anything and everybody that doesn't conform to their opinions.

I've never understood what attracts those kinds of people to Vegas.

But that's the crowd that Vegas attracts.

As for Premiere, I think it can be used by professionals successfully.

But its big drawback for me is that it's BORING.

Premiere requires third-party hardware to amount to anything useful.

On its own, it's just a 'cutter.'

Ulead and in-sync are innovative...

Ulead was first with OHCI support.

Ulead was first with Direct Show support.

Ulead was first with integrated DVD authoring.

Blade 2.0 by in-sync is the first PC program with support for 24p.

Vegas isn't 'new' with anything other than its non-standard interface.

When I look at your screen shot, I actually feel like giggling.

Ulead MediaStudio Pro has had a waveform monitor and vectorscope since version 5.0!

...and Vegas finally is about to offer that feature and they post a screen shot as if they have something 'new?'

Looks like they've finally discovered the elementary concepts of color correction and DVD authoring.

Wow.

The only problem with that is these features have already been available in competing NLEs.

Sonic Foundry is a 'me too' software developer.

I agree, however, that their code is stable.

It's too bad their company finances are not.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[vlad the inhale]

Well, I obviously have a better opinion of Vegas than you do, but I won't belabor the point beyond a few comments. The thing that struck me as "new" and innovatice from the screenshots were (1) 5.1 mixing and AC3 encoding from the timeline; (2) primary and secondary color correctors, perhaps with some kind of masking capabilities; and (3) the integration of full-featured DVD authoring (i.e., with motion menus, subtitles, and the whole shebang). This is in addition to Vegas's current, and extremely robust, support for keyframable speed changes and multilayer compositing with apply modes. I might be wrong, but I don't think any current NLEs can match Vegas's support for those features (Premiere and Xpress DV certainly don't; I'm less familiar with MSPro). And it seems a little harsh to call SOFO, the company that gave the world Acid Music, a "me too" developer.

But like I said before, to each his own. This is software, not religion :-)

[Jerry Jones]

Anybody who suggests that Vegas offers anything beyond simple compositing is not telling the TRUTH about that software.

I downloaded the demo and I explored the compositing capabilities of Vegas.

They do not go beyond what is already available in competing editors such as in-sync SPEED RAZOR or Ulead's MEDIASTUDIO PRO.

What's worse:

Sonic Foundry's software has no standardized plug-in architecture.

So that's why Vegas isn't supported by 3rd-party compositing plug-ins such as BORISFX.

Both Ulead MEDIASTUDIO PRO and in-sync SPEED RAZOR, on the other hand, enjoy full support from BORISFX and many other specialized plug-ins.

The same is true of Avid XPRESS DV.

Moreover, your mention of full-featured DVD authoring...

...again...

...Ulead's MEDIASTUDIO PRO 6.5 was the first to offer basic authoring...

...Ulead's MEDIASTUDIO PRO 7.0 will offer an even wider range of functionality in March...

http://www.ulead.com/aboutulead/press/pr12-10-02.htm

...Ulead's DVD WORKSHOP product has already established itself as an industry standard sub-$500 authoring program in less than one year:

http://www.ulead.com/dws/features.htm

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[funky-d-munky]

Jones,
you seem to be the Flip-side of those Vegas forum goers.

[Jerry Jones]

Get real.

You Sonic Foundry guys just keep forcing it and forcing it.

...and I'm tired of just keeping quiet on the issue.

Look nobody is happy that Sonic Foundry is FLAT BROKE.

But you guys keep ignoring that very real issue like it's not even a concern.

I mean... do you guys even read the newspapers?

Look at this article dated December 30, 2002...

...that's just 9 days ago.

http://wcco.com/apwisconsin/WI--SonicFoundry-Goin-kn/resources_news_html

Here's the verbatim text:

Auditors for Sonic Foundry Inc. have raised substantial doubt about the software company's ability to continue as a going concern.

Ernst & Young's opinion was included in the Sonic Foundry's annual report, released Monday by the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Sonic Foundry, based in Madison, Wis., makes audio and video software, including the popular ACID music-making program.

The auditor cited the company's working capital deficiency for issuing the opinion.

"In addition, the company's convertible debt is a current obligation and the company does not have long-term credit availability,'' the auditor said.

The company has hired an adviser to evaluate the sale of operating assets, the filing said, and has received offers from qualified bidders.

It anticipates closing one or more sales in early 2003.

Shares of the company closed at 51 cents Monday on the Nasdaq Stock Market, down 2 cents, or 4 percent.

______


Now I don't know about you, but I think it's not too darned wonderful for Vegas boosters to go bopping around the internet recommending this software when the company that makes it appears to be sinking like the Titanic.

...and which other company would even be interested in buying Vegas?

...and will it wind up like the ill-fated 'EDIT DV' application?

Remember EDIT DV?

That's the program that used to get so many rave reviews from DV MAGAZINE.

Well, it was acquired by Media 100 from...

...Digital Origin...

...which was formerly known as Radius...

...and then Media 100 changed the name of EditDV to CINESTREAM...

...and then DISCREET bought CINESTREAM from Media 100...

...it just bounced from one company to the next...

...and then we never heard of the program again.

Vegas kind of reminds me of EditDV.

There were rabid followers of EditDV, too.

And then that ship sank like a rock.

Hey, I'd like to see Vegas survive just to keep the level of competition up there.

But I have my doubts.

What's even more scary is the hardware locked activation scheme.

Here's the latest SEC report, if you're interested in all of the gory details of Sonic Foundry's financial mess:

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1029744/000095013102005040/d10k.txt

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[funky-d-munky]

"You Sonic Foundry guys just keep forcing it and forcing it.

...and I'm tired of just keeping quiet on the issue."

Uh ya, us Sonic Foundry guys. LOL! And what you quiet. LOL!

[vlad the inhale]

You're right. I now realize how completely irresponsible it was of me to post that link to the Vegas 4 screenshots. It won't happen again.

[Jerry Jones]

No need to be so sarcastic.

Feel free to post as many screen shots as you wish.

Your comment:

"Yep, if only Vegas fans were as open-minded to the virtues of Premiere and other editors as, say, MSPro fans, things might be really different . . ."

...is what triggered my responses.

This sarcastic remark isn't true.

I have already indicated I'm shopping for a second NLE for fun...

...and I'll probably buy in-sync's BLADE 2.0:

http://www.in-sync.com/products/product.php?ID=539E9BDC

...not Vegas.

The fact that I don't choose Vegas seems to be your real source of heartburn.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net