Vegas 4 beta released

[farid]

(Sorry, me again, can't resist)

Be sure to try the "Auto-ripple" feature in VV4, then try to go back to whatever NLE you used before (including VV3) and weep.

Farid

[DJ]

I get realtime previews to camera on a 1.2Ghz Duron. Just like Ellie, still can't figure out how to razor a track. Seems quite interesting though.

DJ

[farid]

To razor a track simply select the event before hitting S or use the "Solo" function.

Farid

[DJ]

Thanks.

DJ

[JackHu]

Just did a quick test on the rendering speed.

It is so slow!!

Just rendered a clean untouched clip of 43 sec and it took 45 sec to render!!

With the same piece of clip, it took MSP7 just 32 sec.

What happened to the rendering speed in Vegas?

I always thought that they were famous for their rendering speed.

The quality is not as good as MSP7 as well.

Jack

[JackHu]

My system is Win2K, P4 1.8, 256MB.

I rendered the clip in to WMV format.

Jack

[farid]

My system is a humble XP, PIII 1Ghz, 192MB (SDRAM,Abit BH6,Mill2)

I rendered a DV clip to WMV using both in VV3 and VV4 with identical settings (360x288,25FPS,100Kbit stream from and original PAL DV Sofo-codec encoded original). To my surprise VV4 was about twice as fast than VV3 (5 minutes instead of 10 for a 3.5 minute clip - see my system settings before you LOL !)

To be honest, I hardly ever render to anything else than DV and MPEG (using the built-in MainConcept encoder).

Sofo have been famous for their fast DV codec (since VV3) and I use it all the time my great satisfaction. It allows near realtime previewing (as opposed to rendering) on poor man's systems like mine.

Farid

[Dr Mordrid]

See my new thread of MSP7 vs. VV4 rendering speeds....

Dr. Mordrid

[miya]

Doc's creditibity is becoming strained

I used to have great respect for you, Mordrid, but you are beginning to sound alot like Jerry now (who is a complete wacko and cannot be trusted to have an unbiased opinion about anything.) Next thing you know, you will be physically theatening those who disagree with you (which Jerry has done to me and others here.) There is life outside of Ulead, and talented and creative programmers as well.

I do applaud you for actually giving VV4 a try, but alas it seems you only did so in order to find its faults and point them out to all.

It is no secret that you have a beta-testing relationship with Ulead, which makes you suspect as far as objectivity. That is a shame, since you obviously have great knowledge, but I can no longer trust your contributions here.

[Dr Mordrid]

WTF is so biased about offering my opinion of how it looks/works/renders?

Slow rendering is a huge limitation. Just ask Premiere users. Bad UI design is bad UI design, no matter who does it.

Example: press "S" for "Split" to cut a clip without requiring an ALT or CTRL qualifier to make sure you mean it???? I'm not very impressed with its motion or compositing controls either.

In this regard VV is at least consistant. When I tested its first incarnation that was my first impression then as well. There are some nice features in it, but someone in the UI department needs to take a field trip to Avid, Adobe and Ulead to get a clue. "Different" isn't always "better".

As for my betatesting "relationships", that doesn't do anyone much good.

I've ripped Ulead a time or three too....just ask anyone who's been here (or the Ulead beta forum) about my feelings on MSPro's smallish keyframer and the lack of a curved moving path control. Right Jack?

Same happened with Premiere. I rip them regularly too, and with VERY good reason.

This week it's just Sonic Foundry's turn.

Dr. Mordrid

[farid]

Doc,

I don't share your views on the importance of rendering. Well, I do acknowledge that rendering speed is important as such, but since the differences in speed amongst software NLE packages are not signicative when compared to RT, the importance of rendering has diminished. At the end of the day when doing NLE what matters most is the productivity and though rendering is part of package, features like fast preview,auto-ripple,etc... will have more weight.

In the old days (five-seven years ago) there was no CPU power and no RT and people made great videos as well, sometimes reverting to workarounds like making "minis" to drastically reduce render times. Today with good DV codecs rendering time is acceptable IMHO.

My complaint about VV : no support for "cheap" realtime cards from Pinnacle and Matrox (lack of interface ?). Of course, it could be the other way around : HW manufacturers might not be interested into making their HW compatible with a cheap package as they assume that customers who buy in this category will never go RT and stick to software DV.

Farid

[Dr Mordrid]

Rendering speed isn't important? On what freakin' planet??

In the real world of editing;

RT exports are typically done to native file formats used by the camera (DV mostly) and are mainly exported for archival purposes. This is a one-shot deal and amounts to a few percent of the total number of exports.

Far more often full renders are done to distribution formats (ex: MPEG, WMV and Real). This is where time gets eaten up by poorly written rendering engines. Long rendering times = money, or at the least a massive inconvenience.

Very few (if any) programs export MPEG in anything close to realtime with any quality at all without a massively fast system. MPEG's are also the most commonly used export format these days, and will be inceasingly so in the future. As such; the rendering speed of a program is very important, unless you like growing a beard waiting for the project to finish.

In this case MSPro7 has it all over VV4 because of its proven speed at rendering to about any internal format or frameserving to an external encoder by way of VideoServer.

AFAIK VV4 doesn't even have a frameserver available to fall back on when there is an MPEG quality crunch, which forces it to render to disk before something like TMPGEnc, MainConcept or CCE can even be brought into play.

On the streaming front rendering speed is likewise very important, especially if you're batch encoding to several different profiles. Speaking of which: can VV4 batch encode to different formats in one gulp? I didn't see it myself....but if you did please explain where it is since that too is a very valuable feature.

In this case MSPro7 is also qjite capable of creating WMV and RM files faster than realtime for most profiles or 1-1.5x realtime for broadband with an AthlonXP 2000+ or faster system. It can also batch encode to different formats in one gulp.

From the looks of my simple encoding test VV4 falls into the Rip Van Winkle range of rendering times regardless of format with just straight content. Add effects and it's be even worse, which for myself and others makes it a waste of time absent realtime hardware to speed it up.

Dr. Mordrid

[JackHu]

Gee people,

Doc, Jerry, other testers, and other members of the user group are entitled to have their own opinions.

You should see some of the s!%^ they gave me, some of it had interesting language in between as well.

I think Sonic Foundry should be able to take the heat. It is part of the game. Taking critizism about your product is always a good sign. It means there are users actually taking pride and care in your work. They all mean well, otherwise how would you improve your product without all these feedbacks.

That is why I enjoy working with Terry, Jerry and other beta testers. They actually respond and give them their true opinions. There is not much point of getting positive respond only, although it is good to know that the supplier is getting something right.

Jack

[vlad the inhale]

Doc --

In the real world of editing, if you're doing the kind of work where rendering speeds really are as important as you're describing, then you'd be a fool not to purchase either dedicated hardware like the RTX.100 or Storm and/or software like Cleaner or Procoder (and those are just the products in the prosumer price range). Acting as though the most important consideration for a $500 editing/finishing app is whether it provides the kind of rendering and encoding speeds that are needed in some types of professional work just seems silly.

Moreover, in the real world of editing, there are a lot of situations in which you do have the time to let the app render for several hours, especially if you've been efficient during the editing process. For a lot of users -- myself included, for certain projects -- the time saved during the editing process in Vegas (because of its superior audio tools, native compositing abilities and very flexible approach to panning and motion effects) more than make up for the time lost during Vegas's relatively slow renders.

If rendering speeds are very important to you, fine. If MSPro is a better fit for your workflow, great. But don't act as though anyone with different priorities doesn't know what they're talking about.


Jack --

No one says that Doc, Jerry and others aren't entitled to their own opinions. What gets grating is when they spread FUD (like Doc's ridiculous claim that Vegas 4 requires an ASIO soundcard) or act as though those who disagree with them are ignorant about the real world of editing. And it's quite tedious to be unable to discuss another NLE without having someone troll the thread into showdown between that NLE and MSPro, with everyone placed into their assigned camps of "Ulead guys" and "other manufacturer guys."

This is the second Vegas thread I've started in two weeks. Both of them turned into flamefests from MSPro fans. It would be pleasant if just once, another NLE's pluses and minuses -- and Vegas certainly has both -- could be discussed without the apparently obligatory bows toward the superiority of MSPro.

[JackHu]

That is good. I am used to their abuse anyway.

That is why I enjoy their company.

Pluses and minuses: every program have this, it is just the case of which has more than the other.

I would like to see the pluses and minuses of other NLE programs as well, because I don't want to see myself narrow minded by my own programs.

I would like to get to know you guys as well. You could have other opinions and ideas that Ulead beta team hasn't picked up as well. The quality and standard of the user group is beyond my doubt of professionalism, therefore it would be great when we are able to share our ideas.

What do you say?

Jack