Microsoft joins the DVD+RW Alliance

[Jerry Jones]

You're too smart to really believe what you've written.

The fact of the matter is the "+" format isn't significantly more 'advanced' than the existing DVD Forum approved formats.

In fact, DVD+RW is not as advanced.

And it's clearly lagging in the market where DVD d-i-s-c consumer camcorders are concerned (there are none available) and where DVD d-i-s-c stand alone recorders are concerned (there is only one Philips model currently available).

1. DVD-RAM discs can be protected by cartridges that protect the discs against the kind of wear and tear that video records like this would receive in typical field operations.

2. DVD-RAM discs could be edited in the office using Panasonic DVD-RAM-capable computer drives. I learned I could edit DVD-RAM video in real time using Panasonic's DVD-MovieAlbum software that was bundled with my home Panasonic LF-D321.

3. DVD-RAM discs feature defect management to ensure data integrity.

4. DVD-RAM discs are priced competitively in local stores such as CompUSA.

5. DVD-RAM discs can be purchased single or double-sided for either 4.7gb or 9.4gb capacities.

6. DVD-RAM discs support 100,000 re-writes as opposed to DVD+RW's 1,000 re-writes.

7. DVD-RAM discs - in computer drives - can be used as virtual hard drives, allowing one to easily drag and drop all types of video files, including Windows Media, as data.

8. DVD-RAM technology seems to have a wider presence...

...there are at least four or five models of DVD recorders by Samsung, Toshiba, and Panasonic that support DVD-RAM as opposed to the one DVD+RW model by Philips...

...there are professional and consumer DVD-RAM camcorders made available by Hitachi and Panasonic...

Here is my Web list of devices supporting DVD-RAM:

a. Hitachi Professional DVD-RAM camcorder

http://www.hdal.com/products/products.ihtml?step=3&pid=1066&parent=51

b. Prosumer DVD-R/DVD-RAM camcorder

http://www.hitachi.com/tv/browse/camcorders/dvd/dvd_index.shtml

c. Toshiba DVD VCR with 80gb hard drive and DVD-R/DVD-RAM support

http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/dvd/current/RDX2.html

d. Samsung DVD VCR with DVD-R/DVD-RAM support

http://www.samsungusa.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?eUser=&prod_id=DVD-R3000%2fXAA

e. Panasonic DVD VCR with 40gb hard drive and DVD-R/DVD-RAM support

http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/shop/NewDesign/ModelTemplate.asp?ModelId=16904&show_all=false&product_exists=True&active=1&ModelNo=DMR-HS2&CategoryId=2596

f. DVD VCR with DVD-R/DVD-RAM support

http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/shop/NewDesign/ModelTemplate.asp?ModelId=16905&show_all=false&product_exists=True&active=1&ModelNo=DMR-E30K&CategoryId=2596

g. DVD VCR with DVD-R/DVD-RAM support

http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/shop/NewDesign/ModelTemplate.asp?ModelId=16907&show_all=false&product_exists=True&active=1&ModelNo=DMR-E30S&CategoryId=2596

h. DVD portable player with DVD-R/DVD-RAM support: http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/sho...ategoryId=2978

i. DVD portable player with DVD-R/DVD-RAM support: http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/sho...ategoryId=2978

j. DVD player with DVD-RAM support: http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/sho...goryId=%202977

k. DVD player with DVD-RAM support: http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/sho...goryId=%202977

l. DVD player with DVD-RAM support: http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/sho...goryId=%202977

m. DVD player with DVD-RAM support: http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/sho...goryId=%202977

n. DVD player with DVD-RAM support: http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/sho...goryId=%202977

o. DVD player with DVD-RAM support: http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/sho...goryId=%202977

p. DVD-R/DVD-RAM camcorder: http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/sho...ategoryId=2690

q. New model DVD-R/DVD-RAM camcorder: http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_el...t_id=344%20%0D

r. OEM DVD Multi computer drive with DVD-RAM support: http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/...rods/specs.htm

s. Retail DVD Multi computer drive with DVD-RAM support: http://www.panasonic.com/office/temp...delNo=lf-d521u

t. LG DVD MULTI drive with support for DVD-RAM *bare* discs: http://www.lgeus.com/Product/CD/GMA4020b.asp

u. Teac DVD MULTI drive with support for DVD-RAM: http://www.teac.co.jp/dspd/product/optical/dv-w22e.html

v. Archos DVD MULTI drive with support for DVD-RAM: http://www.archos.com/lang=en/products/prw_500364.html

The above list is by no means exhaustive, but I think people who survey this long list will open their minds to the notion that DVD-RAM is not only *already* in widespread use, but its trend in the marketplace is characterized by *expansion* and *versatility* and *synergy* between DVD-RAM capable camcorders, DVD-RAM capable computers, and DVD-RAM capable DVD recorders (VCRs).

9. DVD-RAM discs are approved by the DVD Forum.

10. DVD-RAM discs can be re-used many times and therefore stand less of a chance of winding up in the landfill as do so many write-once formats. In other words, they are the best choice from an environmental standpoint.

11. DVD-RAM discs feature more robust editing options and random access, making it easy to jump to pre-selected points in a given recording.

12. DVD-RAM discs are supported in all recent versions of Windows, already, with DRAG-AND-DROP file operations. Support for native DRAG-AND-DROP won't be available for DVD+RW until the future Windows version called 'LongHorn.'

Armed with the above facts, you can now defend yourself against the consumer-sales tactics of those blue-shirted Best Buy salesmen... especially if they're making the claim to you that DVD+RW is to DVD-R/DVD-RAM what Windows was to DOS.

That simply isn't true.

If it were true, then Apple, IBM, Gateway, and Sony wouldn't continue to be offering various combinations of DVD Forum approved DVD-R/RW/RAM drives.

https://www.dvdforum.com

:-)

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Kris1]

Hi.

Well, I'm holding of any statements as yet. It was late yesteday, and the tests I did gave very unconclusive results. Lets just say that at least ONE un-finalized DVD+R did read on my cheap'n cheerful Tokai standalone player. I'm rather puzzled, so I'm going to repeat that test tomorrow when I have a clear head.

Jerry : I'm not contesting the pro's of DVD-Ram, if that's the impression I gave. What I do know however is this : over here (In the parts of Europe I know : Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and France that is, I refuse to talk about things I haven't checked myself), I can walk in any super-small PC shop and ask for both a DVD+R or a DVD-R medium, and the man behind the counter will ask "what brand do you like". I know from own experience, the answer will unchangably be "I'll have to order that for you" if I'd ask for a DVD-ram cartridge. (yes I know you can use DVD-R too, but that's not my point here).

It would seem that the market penetration of DVD-Ram is _totally different_ depending on where you're residing on the globe.

Personally, I don't care squat "who wins" so to speak. Whatever works for you _today_ in your situation is good enough. By the time any "winner" is picked, current drives that are used in a SoHo enviroment will either be complete obsolete or sent to the scrap heap anyhow, I think.

[wkulecz]

Let it rest.

Both formats pretty much suck and can't deliver the compatability in random standalone players that we really want. If 2 out of three is good enough then either DVD-R or DVD+R will fill the bill. Otherwise forget about it.

IMHO only the combo DVD-R/RW+RW/R drives should be considered so you can buy what media is on sale.

The "format war" is a distraction to cover the fact that compatability in existing players is substandard.

--wally.

[William]

Originally posted by Jerrold Jones
You're too smart to really believe what you've written.

The fact of the matter is the "+" format isn't significantly more 'advanced' than the existing DVD Forum approved formats.

In fact, DVD+RW is not as advanced.

You neglet to mention the issue of recovering from a buffer underrun situation. + has major advantages there.

[Jerry Jones]

What advantage?

I have buffer underrun protection every time I burn a DVD-R disc using my Panasonic LF-D311 using Ulead DVD Workshop.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Jerry,

I was only referring to the advantages IMPLIED in consumers minds by a newer format. I do think there are some advantages to the "+" format, but they are debatable.

Sadly, I don't think we are going to see this debate to a conclusion where one side can claim victory like the VHS vs Beta war many years ago.

In a few years, both formats will still be around, AND a newer, much better format will arrive, making both "+" and "-" moot.

For now, I step from the ring...

-Mark

[William]

- employs lossy linking; + lossless. Bad naming, but the actual diference is that + is like the later versions of BP -i.e. in the event of an underrun, it starts again at the same place (no gap). Whereas - leaves a gap; when it restarts it leaves an unwritten area, which can cause some players to get upset.

Of course, if you prevent underruns by supplying data fast enough, this'll never matter to you. However, in a low end consumer PC with a fragmented HD, this starts to become a problem.

[Technoid]

+R/RW wins for me since my Panasonic likes em and it HATES -R/RW

Besides -R/RW will go the same way as the 650MB CD-R/RW: Extinct

[Flying dutchman]

As for the DVD forum, whether they approve a format or not is not very relevant to me; the most important feature -in my eyes- of any writable DVD is if it will play in MY standalone player or not.
DVD-Ram certainly will not. It is just one of the many great optical products that really have nothing to do with video though one could, of course, construct a video recording device with it. Very nice if you want to make movies that nobody else can play but certainly more useful as a backup medium.

I find the fact that DVD+R isn't approved by the DVD forum a big advantage; these disks have no individual copy protection track (this track is burned onto each DVD-R disk individually which is a slow and expensive process; the manufacturer has to pay license fees for it as well).

I'm feeling more and more antipathy against copy protection schemes each day. A friend of mine (a musician) bought a tiny Sony Minidisc recording device. The thingy is equipped with a USB port with which it can excange audio files with a PC. It looks very slick and the sound quality is good. A few months ago he was playing with his band and recorded the concert, only to find that he couldn't transfer the files to his PC. The builtin copy protection scheme refused him access to his own material; he had to transfer it through his sound card (analog) rather than copy it directly. One more Sony hater.

[Flying dutchman]

I'm gonna buy a +R/W drive this month (after the Cebit - they'll be cheaper then).

Has anyone read any decent test reports? I'm particularly interested in error correction quality, and whether the drive will play non-standard audio CD's.

[Kris1]

I know (and you do too, I have no doubt) C't had a couple of tests running a couple of months ago. If you missed them, I can try and dig them up for you.

A friend of mine is waiting for his ordered Plextor DVD+R drive, it should arrive any time now. I have high hopes for that one, depending on the devices' inards origin.

The one thing I do remember about the tests in C't is they were not overly enthausiatic about the Sony DRU, and more or less stated it's saving grace was it's multiformat capability.

On the DVD+R "closed session/finalized disc" discussion, well I've got 3 DVD+R's here now that do play on my Tokai, though not finalized. I knew full well the Tokai is a _VERY_ odd device when it comes to playing back media, often accepting to play back stuff that would choke any other DVD player. Indeed, no other DVD player I tried was capable of playing back the un-finalized DVD's. So in my book, Jerry's correct in stating that to ensure as high compatibility as possible, DVD+R's should be finalized.

[Flying dutchman]

I have a similar player to your Tokai, a SEG 2001 (they're all based on the Raite 705/715 series AFAIK) with the famous "KISS" firmware that's optimized for SVCD and even mini-DVD. I had to replace the internal DVD drive by a second-hand Hitachi GD-2000 because the original Raite drive was so lousy in quality.

I _do_ hope it will read DVD+R....

[Technoid]

Sony DRU500 is working like a champ over here reading everything and burning everything perfectly

[Kris1]

FD :

Bijna. The one I'm using is a Tokai 315, not really the same hardware as those SEG/Yammi/Raites, but you're very close : in fact, the DVD also played on my old 715 which spends its pre-pension days underneath my dad's TV set. (power supply failed, repaired it after I had bought a new one, so my dad got a free DVD player. He didn't complain. ). His one had the DVD-Ram capable Panasonic drive inside, I specifically hunted down a Raite with that pickup as I had read the Raite 108 drives were so bad.

As for a Hitachi GD2000 : I'm not sure anymore, I thought it doesn't. I really hope for your sake I'm proven wrong on this account though. It's successor GD2500 does read DVD+R and DVD-R, I'm sure, as that old monster is still beeing used in my office PC. The GD2500 was a facelift version of the GD2000, so there might still be a chance of it reading DVD+R. After that, I only got into trouble with the GD5000 and certain brands of DVD+R. (Sony most noticably)

Generic Hitachi Engine pointer : if you ever get into troubles with a Hitachi DVD engine, a specific Hitachi problem is that over time, two pieces of adhesive rubber used to stabilize the drive mechanism get unstuck after a while. These then will interfere with the Drive pickup itself, causing the drive to fail. I've noticed that you can remove the pads (little pieces of black foam rubber) and the drive will still work as if nothing happened.

[Flying dutchman]

Nice compatibility lists here:

http://www.coliday.com/cd_dvd_tape/pdf/DVD_compatibilty_chart_DVD+R.pdf

My Hitachi drive is supposedly DVD+R compatible.