New/improved M$ DV codec in Dx8...

[Dr Mordrid]

Rehash: the current M$ DV codec has color shifting and artifacts on recompression, among other issues. Since many cards, like the Pyro, use the M$ DV codec this can make life "interesting" for many editors.

Micro$oft must have heard all the complaints as they are updating it in DirectX8. Word is that it is a vast improvement.

About time....it's been in that pitiful condition since forever.

Dr. Mordrid

[Sillyname]

Is there a list of cards and their DV codec? I was thinking of buying a PYRO until you said it had a Microsoft codec.

------------------
Deep is not the root word of depression.

[Grigory]

Most 1394 cards with TI controller have no codec and no need to have a codec. The firewire transfer copies data to hard drive and back. Any DV codec that supports type1 DV can work, but MS codec already exists in the system.
Conclusion: new codec will work with all these cards.

Grigory

[wkulecz]

Sillyname

The few companies that have good codecs are charging about $500 for their hardware and software. Canopus is probably the best, followed by EditDV and DVsoft (Adaptec, Pinacle DV200 & DV300 if I'm not mistaken) with the MS codec in a distant last place. Based on a comparision I saw at:
http://members.home.net/dgcom/MiniDV/DVcompressors.htm


The Main Concept codec is supposed be good. Perhaps its been added to the comparison now.

--wally.

[johnpr98]

First thing, the transferred footage from the camcorder is unaltered by the MS or any other codec. Unaltered footage transmitted back to the camcorder is also not rendered again.

The MS codec appears to be a big issue in the USA for some NTSC users. There are also a lot of Professional users who are not affected. (These users have been called incapable of seeing a defect if it bit them on the nose

As most editing done with the ADS Pyro is first generation (DV Smartplay is around nowadays) & the codec only affects changes to the original i.e. transitions & FX (Noticable Greenish hue 3rd\4th generation)it is not the big issue IMO opinion that the hype has promoted.

PAL users are not affected by the green hue.

Tests of NTSC & PAL at my home page, which were brought to the appropriate people's attention.

I am still glad that the MS codec is been improved though.

johnpr98

Home Page With ADS Pyro Info & Examples
ADS Pyro & Ulead VS & MS Pro 6 Forum With Tips & Info http://www.johnpr98.com

John Price ADS Technologies PYRO forum http://www.wwug.com/forums/ads-tech/index.htm



[This message has been edited by johnpr98 (edited 18 September 2000).]

[dgcom]

Thanks Doc, for reposting news here .

To others: I'd be working on updates to my web page ( http://members.home.net/dgcom/MiniDV/DVcompressors.htm ) to show codec improvements.

Thanks,
DGCom

[This message has been edited by dgcom (edited 19 September 2000).]

[jeff b]

I've been using DV with a TRV900 and MSP6 with the M$ DV codec since this all became available, and I find that it's been much better quality than the MJPEG (at about the same data rate as DV) codec I used to use with my RR/S for the two years before that. The difference in quality was so striking that, even last Autumn when I could only use VideoStudio to get DV in and out of the computer on 1394, I would opt for that in spite of VS's limited editing capabilities on most of my projects.

In all the months since, I have only seen objectionable artifacting once, and that was when I tested the M$ DV codec to see what all the fuss was about.

It's true that multi-generational re-renders will produce increasingly bad video using M$ DV codec, and it's true that this DV codec results in the fastest degradation among other available DV codecs. But it really should be put into perspective with other codecs when they are used at the same data rate of around three and a half megabytes/second. Try re-rendering 5 to 10 generations of MPEG1 or MPEG2, or any of the MJPEG codecs with that same data rate.

Considering that, and the fact that M$ DV codec has been available for a lot less money than all the others (free), one has to wonder what all the pissing and moaning has really been about over the past year.

Any improvement to M$ DV codec will simply be a bonus for an already very usable and free codec. The only real drawback over the past two years has been how slow it's all been in coming. The big plus, however, is that users don't have to spend more money and/or then fuss and "go configure" for days and weeks with this non-proprietary software and the "vanilla" IEEE-1394 hardware.

The last time I had to re-install Windows was 10/99. The last time I had a problem was just before I took out the last piece of Matrox hardware. The re-configuration du jour and the "clean install" is now a distant memory for me.

All things considered, any low to mid level user who isn't trying to make a living with NLE and who ISN'T using DV has simply missed the boat at this stage of the game.

Jeff B

[johnpr98]

Jeff b

I agree with most of what you said except

Any improvement to M$ DV codec will simply be a bonus for an already very usable and free codec. The only real drawback over the past two years has been how slow it's all been in coming.

I think you have the SIIG but I understand that the ADS Pyro was released in June 1999.

15½ months in the field isn't 2 years.

It's interesting to hear that you as an NTSC user don't have major problems with firewire & editing with the MS codec.

Saying that any improvement is welcome, especially for "Free".

Thanks to Dmitri for his behind the scenes work in highlighting the issue and a slap on the wrist for me because I didn't help to prove it didn't affect PAL users as much, sooner

Best Regards

johnpr98

Home Page With ADS Pyro Info & Examples
ADS Pyro & Ulead VS & MS Pro 6 Forum With Tips & Info http://www.johnpr98.com

John Price ADS Technologies PYRO forum http://www.wwug.com/forums/ads-tech/index.htm



[This message has been edited by johnpr98 (edited 19 September 2000).]

[Dr Mordrid]

Yes, the new M$ DV codec will not affect DV video imported and exported unchanged.

HOWEVER, those edited portions that have added effects, titles, overlays, filters or keys are subjected to recompression by a software codec when the project is output. It doesn't matter if it's MSPro, Premiere or younameit. This is where M$ DV frequently comes into play.

Check Dmitry Gromov's site for a comparison of several current DV softcodecs, including M$ DV;

Procedure: http://members.home.net/dgcom/MiniDV/DVcompressors.htm

Images: http://members.home.net/dgcom/MiniDV/DVcompressors2.htm

Even though Dmitry tested over 5 generations of recompression, careful examination of the current M$ DV codecs output shows degradation after a single generation. The most obvious effects are a green color shift and vertical banding of the image.

An update is long overdue.

Dr. Mordrid



[This message has been edited by Dr Mordrid (edited 20 September 2000).]

[johnpr98]

Dr Mordrid

Many users don't see this "problem" as they don't go down in the generations like Dmitrys tests.

PAL users are not affected by the greenish hue.

The new MS codec helps to fix this problem. (Improvements always welcome).

I have done tests as well instigated by Rex Carson who is is doubtful even now of the statement by Dmitry that there's
an improvement.

My PAL tests http://www.price98.freeserve.co.uk/page14.htm http://www.price98.freeserve.co.uk/page17.htm
MY NTSC test http://www.price98.freeserve.co.uk/ntsctest.htm

I have always said "Judge for yourself", Real Users seem happier than testers in my experience.

Anyway I am still glad that an improvement is near.
http://216.246.51.202/forums/uleadme...0820024819.htm

http://webboard.pinnaclesys.com/read...ead=15&Search=

johnpr98

Home Page With ADS Pyro Info & Examples
ADS Pyro & Ulead VS & MS Pro 6 Forum With Tips & Info http://www.johnpr98.com

John Price ADS Technologies PYRO forum http://www.wwug.com/forums/ads-tech/index.htm


[This message has been edited by johnpr98 (edited 20 September 2000).]

[jeff b]

Doc & John:
Mostly, I think that if anyone is interested in making home video with some level of quality, sans any fancy effects, the vanilla 1394 with either VideoStudio or MSP6 and the M$ codec is completely usable. And this has been my only point about it: I think that low end users who've been struggling with RR/S and Marvel all these years can make the transition to DV and be pleasantly surprised at the increase in quality.

All the noise about how the M$ DV codec is deficient has, I think, scared a lot of people away from making that transition.

It's true that there's imperfections with this codec, and I'm not saying that it's okay for any kind of business application. But when people get drawn in to the idea of taking all their home videos and being able to edit them on the computer, and create titles and crossfades, it really becomes of matter of what would give them the best "bang for the buck". I think the M$ DV codec, with VS4 or MSP6, is GREAT for that!

John: my "two years" viewpoint was mostly based on the seminal point in time when Canopus released the DVRaptor... From that point, desktop DV NLE has been evolving more and more towards the low end user's domain. I just think that since the release of VS4, the tools to actually make decent stuff for amateur and home use have been above the "don't use it yet" line. Even VS3 wasn't TOO restricted back a year ago. By this last February, MSP6 upped the ante, and finally a while later the DVII patch pretty much made it all worth doing. I don't think that the deficiencies of the M$ DV codec have really been as much of an issue at the low end, home user level at all. When you compare it with the frame drops, configuration problems, driver problems, ad infinitum, of RR/S's and Marvels, et al... well, there just isn't any contest there!

I shoot, I capture, I edit, I output to VHS, and I get what I want. Before, I'd shoot, I'd capture, I'd try to edit, I'd reconfigure, I'd spend a couple months waiting for new drivers to be released, I'd reinstall Windows, I'd try to edit, I'd re-capture... This is where I'm coming from.

A slight and barely noticable shift in chroma on a transition? GAD! I'll take that any day!

But, all things considered, I really do understand why anyone would be dissatisfied with the M$ DV codec, and would be interested in seeing the 100 pound gorilla in Washington improve it (finally!).

Jeff B

[wkulecz]

I'be been flamed here in the past for complaining about the black bars on the top and left edges of video transcoded from Marvel MJPEG captures so I won't mind being flammed for complaining about the quality of the MS DV codec.

I'm all for people deciding for themselves if its a "problem" or not, but before they lay down their cash, they should be aware of what to look for.

That said you can pick up a Pyro with MSPro6VE and VS4 for <$100 or a "generic" with only VS4 for ~$50, these are game prices folks! and JeffB is right the OHCI cards install and uninstall cleanly without breaking your system -- something that Matrox has real touble with.

Only real trouble is you gotta have Win98SE or Windows 2000. If you are starting from scratch I strongly suggest windows 2000 using NTFS for DV -- the 2/4GB limit will be history.

Now I'll be flamed for suggesting the 2/4 GB limit is a "problem" since Canopus/Matrox/yada-yada has a "work around" :-)

What's the verdict on Windows Me and the Pyro? (I'm not likely to ever try it).

--wally.

[johnpr98]

Here you are NTSC users 6 generations on from PAL to NTSC

Judge for yourselves
http://www.price98.freeserve.co.uk/page19.htm

johnpr98

Home Page With ADS Pyro Info & Examples
ADS Pyro & Ulead VS & MS Pro 6 Forum With Tips & Info http://www.johnpr98.com

John Price ADS Technologies PYRO forum http://www.wwug.com/forums/ads-tech/index.htm

[wkulecz]

This would seem to make the cheap OHCI DV solution impossible to beat if you can live without real-time transitions and effects!

Question is, how do I get the new codec?

I MOST certainly don't want Media Player 7!

--wally.

[A_BIT]

I broke down and ordered a Pyro last Friday! It is only $81.32 delivered to my door!! I plan to install it in my Celeron 400 system along with the G200 Marvel-TV.

I am so excited to get camera control, potiential increased qualitiy and passthrough A/D conversion using the camera.

I currently have full MSP-5 installed and don't want to remove it if possible. Does anyone know if I can leave MSP-5 installed to work with MJPEG projects occasionally and successfully install and use MSP-6-VE and VS-4?

Thanks,



------------------
Anthony

• Slot 1 Celeron 400, Asus P2B, 256MB PC-100
• AGP Marvel-TV 8MB
• Turtle Beach Montego PCI sound card (Y connector on audio out per Matrox tech support)
• C: IBM 10.1, 5400, Primary on 1, System, Swap, Software
• D: IBM 13.5, 5400, Primary on 2, Dedicated to video
• E: Memorex 48x CD, Secondary on 1
• F: Yamaha CD-RW 2x2x8, Secondary on 2
• Win98, FAT32 on C: & D:
• MediaStudio Pro 5.2