DVD +/-R/RW Compatibility

[Flying dutchman]

@Wculecz:

A much larger problem than the reflectivity is the fact that DVD+R and DVD+RW burners actually write a DVD media descriptor on the discs that says "DVD+R(W)" instead of "DVD-ROM".
Many players will not recognize the disc because of this. There are utilities around (so-called "bitsetters") that will make the burner "lie" and mark the discs "DVD-ROM" instead. That alledgedly fools most dvd players so that they accept the discs.

[Dr Mordrid]

Originally posted by wkulecz
And Pioneer's A06 Combo burner means DVD+ is dead right? Maybe someday Panasonic will wake up too.

--wally.

Why should they? Panasonic is winning in the DVD recorder market where they are becoming the 800 lb gorilla. This is also the fastest growing DVD market segment.

They are also agressively targeting the low price DVD player market with 11 of their 13 current consumer decks not only DVD-R but also DVD-RAM capable, which dovetails nicely with their recorders. 9 of these have MSRP's between $99.95 and $149.95 with street prices starting at about $90.

An interesting sidelight of this DVD-RAM compatability in decks is that several models don't list DVD-RW anymore.

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelList?storeId=11251&catalogId=11005&catGroupId=11059

Get those two markets and your standard wins the format war because of the unit volumes involved, which are far higher than those for DVD burners.

Dr. Mordrid

[Jerry Jones]

Wally,

Why would Panasonic have any incentive to offer "+" support?

Panasonic appears to be measuring consumer demand and responding accordingly.

If there's no demand for a late format that offers no significant advantages over existing Panasonic technology, then why add support for it?

I have to be frank:

Your post is the first I have EVER seen requesting Panasonic to support the late "+" formats.

I've never seen anybody else request it.

In addition, my Panasonic LF-D311 already supports playback of DVD+R media - I've confirmed that.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[wkulecz]

We'll see what happens when Apex et. al. floods the market with cheap DVD+RW/R decks by Xmas.

Panasonic has lowered the price of their bottom of the line DVDRAM recorder to what the Apex is expected to be introduced at. This is something I'm happy to see.

Who "wins" will be determined by what Joe Blow, who doesn't have a clue about computers, video or editing, buys. Pricing DVD+RW media vs DVDRAM media, I've seen DVD+RW 10pks for $20 in stores, $15 web/mail-order, I've yet to see a 4.7GB DVDRAM blank for less than $8. Unless this changes soon, Panasonic will quickly blow their early lead. I don't give a rat's ass as to who "wins". I just wnat ot be able to make a disk and expect my client to just be able to play it. Right now its a crap shoot!

My opinion is that stand alone DVDRAM recorders represent the last gasp of DVDRAM as a viable format. Given the fragmentation of the market if you are producing disks I think you need a combo burner, the LG/Hitachi 4040b triple combo that covers all seems the best choice to me -- if it works as advertised. I don't think DVDRAM has a snowballs chance in hell for any sort of distribution, but the possibility of editing DVDRAM disks recorded by the set tops is the first thing to make me consider buying DVDRAM for anything. Getting it "for free" in a triple combo burner is hard to beat!

For someone buying a set top DVD recorder, format doesn't matter if its also their first DVD player -- blank media costs will drive the non-enthusist purchase. Compatability of recorded disks with already owned players might be a significant factor amoung DVD recorder buyers that already have one or more DVD players. To Joe Blow, a DVD is a DVD and if it doesn't play "everywhere" something is wrong -- some will buy a new player to "fix" the problem, others will return the much more expensive DVD recorder. How this plays out might be fun to watch. OTOH if the economy fails to improve, Panasonic and others may have a very hard time selling whatever recorders they make.

Jerry, is your new job with Panasonic?

So what if all new Panasonic players support DVDRAM? Compare the market share for players from APEX and Panasonic. Does Sony offer DVDRAM capable players? Who else besides Panasonic and Hitachi make DVDRAM capable players? How many notebook computers and portable/auto DVD players support DVDRAM? What percentage of DVD players in homes right now can play DVDRAM disks? Far fewer than can play DVD+RW or DVD-RW that's for sure, and the RW compatability is just plain piss poor for older players!

Other than on this forum, I'd be hard pressed to find anyone (other than co-workers) I know who's even heard of DVDRAM let alone requested it!

I think its a travesty that there are three DVD recordable formats and even worse that DVD-R does not have 100% compatability in existing players -- for this I fault the DVD Fourm -- whom you seem to think is God's gift to consumers, but given that seems to be the way it is, the next best solution is to demand players/recorders that handle all formats so the illusion to Joe Blow remains that a DVD is a DVD.

Much has been made about the VHS vs. Beta tape war. VHS "won" despite Beta being "better" because (1) media was "cheaper" (6hrs vs 5hrs on a tape) and (2) JVC licensed VHS to everybody flooding the market with cheap decks and tapes. It wasn't feasible to support VHS and Beta in a single deck and come anywhere close to the price of a single format deck, cleary this is not the case for DVD given the LG/Hitachi 4040b triple combo burner at $235 is competitive with even single format burners.

--wally.

[Jerry Jones]

> We'll see what happens
> when Apex et. al. floods
> the market with cheap
> DVD+RW/R decks by Xmas.

Apex is a quality manufacturer.

But do you think Apex is going to make DVD-RAM go away?

I think not.

I have the Apex AD-1100W stand alone player

I also have an Apex AT1302 TV monitor.

But I will not purchase the Apex DVD+R/DVD+RW player/recorder.

Why?

The Apex model lacks DVD-RAM support!

DVD-RAM is *everywhere.*

I'm not going to miss the boat.

Panasonic has also done a great job with quality so far.

So I'm going to purchase the Panasonic player/recorder.

It includes the DVD-RAM support.

DVD-RAM is an extremely powerful, versatile disc format.

>Panasonic has lowered the price
>of their bottom of the line DVDRAM
>recorder to what the Apex is
>expected to be introduced at.

Both the Apex and the Panasonic units are available right now at my local Wal-Mart.

RCA also had a recorder for sale at my local Wal-Mart when I last visited the store, but the RCA lacks support for DVD-RAM.

>Who "wins" will be determined by
>what Joe Blow, who doesn't have
>a clue about computers, video or
>editing, buys.

Does "Joe Blow" care about DVD?

For many "Joe Blows," a plain vanilla VCR is good enough.

>Pricing DVD+RW media vs DVDRAM
>media, I've seen DVD+RW 10pks for
>$20 in stores, $15 web/mail-order,
>I've yet to see a 4.7GB DVDRAM
>blank for less than $8.

Your shopping is far different where you live.

Here in Boise - the DVD+RW discs are EXPENSIVE!

I had to pay $9 for a single blank at Circuit City.

Hopefully, the prices have come down.

I found cartridged DVD-RAM blanks in CompUSA for as low as $5 and Ritek DVD-RAM blanks are available right now from Meritline...

http://www.meritline.com/4ridvdire.html

...for $3.99 in 25 packs.

>My opinion is that stand
>alone DVDRAM recorders
>represent the last gasp
>of DVDRAM as a viable
>format.

A 70.2% market share for the first three months of 2003 is a pretty good "last gasp."

http://www.avvideo.com/2003/06_jun/news/npd0617.htm

>Given the fragmentation of the
>market if you are producing disks I
>think you need a combo burner, the
>LG/Hitachi 4040b triple combo that
>covers all seems the best choice to me

The Hitachi GSA-4040B is a good drive because it writes to all formats, but it - unfortunately - only supports bare DVD-RAM discs.

http://store.yahoo.com/ourstore-2000/lggmmudrwrto.html

It lacks a 'DEEP DISH TRAY' - which is the advantage of the Panasonic drives that can accept cartridged DVD-RAM media.

>I don't think DVDRAM has a snowballs
>chance in hell for any sort of distribution

It's not a distribution format.

It's a re-writable, editing format.

It works like a hard drive - unlike the write-once formats of DVD-R and DVD+R.

>but the possibility of editing
>DVDRAM disks recorded by the
>set tops is the first thing to make
>me consider buying DVDRAM for
>anything.

>Who else besides Panasonic and Hitachi
>make DVDRAM capable players?

1. Toshiba:

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/product.asp?model=RD-X2

2. Samsung:

http://www.samsung.com/Products/DVDPlayer/DVDRecorder/DVDPlayer_DVDRecorder_DVD_R3000.htm

3. And - a new entry on the way - from JVC called the DR-M1:

http://www.1-877camcorder.com/drm1.html

>How many notebook computers
>and portable/auto DVD players
>support DVDRAM?

I have the Toshiba Satellite 1955-S805 notebook.

It features an integrated DVD Multi drive that supports DVD-RAM, DVD-R, and DVD-RW plus the CD formats.

http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/pc/pc_prodList.jsp?comm=CS&plin=Portable%20Computers

In addition, there are **NO** camcorders based on the "+" formats.

DVD-RAM camcorders include...

1. Panasonic's VDR-M30:

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11251&catalogId=11005&itemId=63189&catGroupId=11299&modelNo=VDR-M30&surfModel=VDR-M30

2. Hitachi's professional CRD10:

http://www.hdal.com/products/products.ihtml?step=3&pid=1066&parent=51

3. Hitachi's consumer DZMV380A:

http://www.hitachi.com/tv/browse/camcorders/dvd/dvd_index.shtml

Even Sony - a "+" camp member - will soon begin marketing DVD disc camcorders, but they won't support the "+" formats!

The new Sony disc camcorders will support DVD-R and DVD-RW!

>What percentage of DVD players
>in homes right now can play
>DVDRAM disks?

DVD-RAM is not designed for distribution; therefore this question is not relevant.

>Far fewer than can play DVD+RW
>or DVD-RW that's for sure, and the
>RW compatability is just plain piss
>poor for older players!

Again, DVD-RAM is not intended for distribution.

In addition, DV MAGAZINE's comprehensive study published in July 2002 revealed that - if anything - DVD+RW's compatibility was even WORSE than that of DVD-RW.

In fact, neither DVD+RW and DVD-RW are intended for distribution.

Distribution to the masses is the job of write-once media such as DVD-R or DVD+R.

And even on this score, the DVD-R appears to be slightly more compatible.

>Other than on this forum, I'd
>be hard pressed to find anyone
>(other than co-workers) I know
>who's even heard of DVDRAM
>let alone requested it!

Outside of this forum, I'd be hard pressed to find anybody who has ever heard of DVD+RW so what's your point?

>I think its a travesty that
>there are three DVD recordable
>formats and even worse that
>DVD-R does not have 100%
>compatability in existing players

But the DVD+R and DVD+RW formats have added to the confusion.

There are now FIVE recordable formats - thanks to the very camp that you seem to have favored.

And - if anything - the DVD+R discs appear to be even slightly less compatible than DVD-R discs!

>for this I fault the DVD Fourm
>-- whom you seem to think is
>God's gift to consumers

As I've pointed out, the DVD Forum did not *ADD* another two DVD recordable formats to bring the total number of DVD recordable formats to FIVE.

The late-to-market "+" camp seems to have been responsible for that - not the DVD Forum.

In fact, the DVD Forum stress on their Web site that the "+" formats are not approved formats:

http://www.dvdforum.com

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[wkulecz]

Take off the Panasonic beer goggles.

You know more people that know about DVDRAM than DVD+RW? Must be something in those patatos in Idaho. :-)

Fry's has an Emachines Athelon 2600+ with DVD+/-RW combo burner in todays paper for $750 (lame MB with integrated S3 graphics!). I'll bet more people have seen this one ad than have DVDRAM! Not to mention what Dell/HP is actually shipping.

The DVD Forum can kiss my Texas ass! Buying something they don't approve of is a feature not a bug to me! It the DVD Forum was worth a shit anything with the DVD logo would read DVD-R and DVD+RW would never have existed late or not!

DVDRAM my be the way to go for set top recorders, but its simply too early to be sure. I'll try the Apex recorder when I see one at a place I can return it if it doesn't work out, after that I'll look at the DVDRAM set tops, but only because the 4040b triple combo drive exists!

--wally.

[Jerry Jones]

They're not Panasonic beer goggles, Wally.

They're...

1. Panasonic

2. Toshiba

3. Samsung

4. Hitachi

5. JVC

6. LG

...see-the-future-clearly goggles.

DVD-RAM is *everywhere.*

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Flying dutchman]

Not intending to put oil on the fire, but most off-the-shelf PC's come with DVD+RW here (Holland). Maybe because the drives are cheaper than their minus-counterparts (I bought a NEC myself for 178 euros several months ago, they go for 160 Euros now). Haven't seen a single DVD-Ram in the shops for ages.

I won't deny that DVD-Ram has technical merits but they really shouldn't have called it "DVD" because it won't play in a DVD player. I wouldn't call an optical disk "CD" either if it won't play in a CD player.

If an mpeg-2 recording device has a sufficiently large built-in hard drive and a DVD+RW or -RW burner, what is a DVD-Ram still needed for?

[xortam]

Originally posted by Flying dutchman
... If an mpeg-2 recording device has a sufficiently large built-in hard drive and a DVD+RW or -RW burner, what is a DVD-Ram still needed for?

The Panasonic DVDRs will reencode when transferring the video from HDD to DVD-R (except when using DVD-R compatibility mode in the new E80H). The transfer to DVD-RAM is direct and can be done at higher speed. The DVD-RAM can be used for importing into a PC for more sophisticated authoring (advanced menus) as well as provides an archive for subsequent DVD-R burns after the video has been removed from the HDD.

My E80H should show up mid-week.

[Flying dutchman]

> The Panasonic DVDRs will reencode when transferring the video from HDD to DVD-R

Well that's a serious flaw if I ever saw one. Converting streaming mpeg into regular mpeg is just a matter of doing some de- and re-multiplexing. Can you at least access the HDD from outside using SCSI or USB/FW or even ethernet?

[wkulecz]

I don't own a DVDR yet, but from what I've read so far hardware hackers have been unsuccessful in updating to a larger hard drive with the Panasonic units.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what I've read in the marketing literature, but I think when you export to a DVD-R or DVDRAM disk it automatically erases the file(s) from the hard drive so you can't easily create multiple copies.

--wally.

[Jerry Jones]

Originally posted by Flying dutchman
If an mpeg-2 recording device has a sufficiently large built-in hard drive and a DVD+RW or -RW burner, what is a DVD-Ram still needed for?

One reason would be DVD disc *camcorders.*

There are none on the market that support DVD+R and DVD+RW.

There are numerous DVD-RAM disc camcorder models.

I have the Panasonic VDR-M30.

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11251&catalogId=11005&itemId=63189&catGroupId=11299&modelNo=VDR-M30&surfModel=VDR-M30

Hitachi makes a consumer model...

http://www.hitachi.com/tv/browse/camcorders/dvd/dvd_index.shtml

Hitachi also markets a professional ENG model...

http://www.hdal.com/products/products.ihtml?step=3&pid=1066&parent=51

If a person chooses a system built-around DVD+R/DVD+RW, then the person should realize he or she is boxing him or herself out of the opportunity to use these camcorders based on DVD-RAM.

If having compatibility with these DVD-RAM camcorders isn't important, then I would agree one could build a system around DVD+R/DVD+RW and be satisfied.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Dr Mordrid]

EXACTLY!! And the main reason for using DVD-RAM, especially in camcorders, is that its error correction methods are much more robust than either of the RW formats. This is why Panasonic itself is dropping DVD-RW support; it's redundent and inferior. DVD+RW is likewise in comparison.

Dr. Mordrid

[Sasq]

It's rather strange here. DVD RAM and -R are being pushed for the set-top recorder. however +R for data media is substantually cheaper.

I shall be most interested to see how it pans out.

[Jerry Jones]

Doc,

You are correct - again.

The error correction of DVD-RAM is superior.

Ironically, Sony is about to release some new DVD disc camcorders based on DVD-R and DVD-RW:

http://www.masterdvd.com/sony-dvd-handycam.html

What I find most interesting about the Sony decision isn't that Sony chose not to use DVD-RAM...

...but rather...

...the fact Sony chose *not* to use DVD+R/DVD+RW - even though Sony is one of the "+" format's biggest allies in the computer drive arena!

*Please note:

The link to the Sony DVD camcorder contains incorrect information.

It states:

"Unlike Hitachi's DVD camcorder range, which records to DVD-RAM, the discs for Sony's DVD Handycam devices can be played back in any DVD player which plays DVD-R discs, including the PlayStation 2."

This is not true.

Both the Hitachi and the Panasonic DVD-RAM camcorders also offer the user the option to record to write-once DVD-R mini discs.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net