Question about producing Mpeg4 ASF files.

[Patrick]

Let's see... so far I've got my FastTrack working, I'm still trying to find out how to adjust the TV output of my Mill2/RR-S, and now I need to ask about Mpeg4 ASF files.

I don't know if I'm imagining this, but I swear that I used to have the option of selecting Mpeg4 under Save as type while using MSP 5.2 before I did a clean install of Win98SE. Keep in mind that I am NOT referring to the Mpeg4 choices that are available under Video Save Options>Compression after Microsoft AVI Files have been selected under Save as type.

I have downloaded and installed Windows Media Tools and I have the ability to produce ASF files using Windows Media Encoder, but I can't do it while editing with MSP. The advantage of being able to produce ASF files while in MSP is that these ASF files could be rendered right off the timeline and not from a re-rendered Mjpeg file.

Does any of this make any sense to anyone?

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 16 November 2000).]

[johnpr98]

With MSP6 I think Netshow needs to be installed, then MSP picks up the codec.

johnpr98
http://www.johnpr98.com

[Patrick]

John, are you confirming that ASF files can be created from within MSP? If so, I guess it wasn't just my imagination that with a previous installation I had MPEG4 listed under Save as type:.

It's not clear to me what Netshow is or where it can be had from. I previously had On-Demand Producer installed so I've installed it again (in addition to Windows Media Tools) hoping that MSP5.2 would pick up the codecs from that, but still no luck.

[johnpr98]

NetShow is part of the stuff included with the ADS Pyro, it must be available for download from Microsoft somewhere?

I can't find it though, only WMplayer7

johnpr98
http://www.johnpr98.com

[Sciascia]

Try this one. http://idiots-guide.matroxusers.com/...ds/mpg4c32.zip
Microsoft disabled the encoding capability of their latest version. Just replace the one in your windows/system folder with this one . You may have to register it if you don't already have it one in there. There are alot of posts on this subject, try the search engine if you need more info.

[This message has been edited by Sciascia (edited 16 November 2000).]

[Patrick]

John, I looked all over the Microsoft site and I couldn't find it either.

Sciascia, thanks for the link but I've already crossed that bridge. When I first re-installed Win98 I discovered that Windows Media Player would not play back any video files encoded with Microsoft's MPEG-4 Video Codec v3. I did a search of this forum and found the information I believe you are alluding to. I can now encode and play back any files I want (when not using MSP). However, installing this older MPG4C32.dll in place of the newer one has done nothing in regards being able to encode ASF files from within MSP5.2. As I've stated above, MPEG4 does not appear under Save as type: as I'm sure it has in the past (before the Win98 re-install).

What I think is really confusing is that there are two different kinds of files associated with MPEG-4. There are AVI files and there are ASF files. Within MSP5.2 at this point I can produce AVI files compressed using MPEG-4, but I can't produce MPEG4 ASF files. I've probably confused everyone now. I know I'm beginning to doubt what I thought I already knew.

[Aryko]

I have not had the best of experiences producing ASF content from MSP6.0, mainly because you are limited to the templates provided by Microsoft - and they all use MPEG4v3, which for some reason doesn't get along with my computer.

For that reason I create videos in native .AVI format in MSP6.0, and then use Windows Media Encoder 4.1 to create an ASF file with custom settings. Works the best I find.

- Aryko

[Patrick]

Aryko, I can tell from doing a Search using your name and "ASF" that you've got a lot of experience using this format. What's really bugging me is that I can't find out for myself just how good or bad an ASF produced within MSP can be. It makes no sense that I don't have this option in my current install of MSP5.2 when I know it was there before I reformatted. I have both Windows Media Tools and On-Demand Producer installed, so why doesn't MSP see (and use) the ASF codec?

It would seem to me to be more efficient to produce an ASF right off the MSP timeline so that video filters, transitions, etc wouldn't have to be rendered twice. Not only would it be a time saver, but I would think (perhaps erroneously) that the image quality should be a tad better also not having to be rendered a second time.

Is there some kind of a trick involved to get MSP5.2 to recognize and make use of the codecs involved with producing ASFs?

[Aryko]

Hi Patrick,

If you did that search, you'd probably notice that there was a lot of struggling going on.

A few points which I'm sure I'm just re-hashing but I figure are worth stating so we're on the same page.

It's my understanding that MPEG-4 is an avi compression standard. You'd think that you'd save a file with MPEG-4 compression as an .mpg file, but I've never seen it that way.

You can use a whole bunch of different compression types to encode an ASF file, apart from MPEG-4, it's just the only one that I've had experience with.

I wouldn't be so sure that saving as an ASF was an option with MSP5.2; in fact,
http://www.ulead.com/msp/compare1.htm

suggests that ASF isn't a supported file format of MSP5.2, which is what I recall.

MSP6.0 (I have VE) supports ASF as a "Save as..." type, but under options, you have to choose one of M$'s templates instead of having custom control. Even then, I'm not sure it would always work.

Case in point: I use the Pyro Firewire card to capture DV footage, I edit in MSP. I tried saving my footage back out as a DV project to maintain project quality and then encode the resulting AVI as an ASF in WME4.1. It crapped out on me while I was setting up the options claiming that there was no audio stream associated with the file; I suspect that it doesn't like DV Audio (48KHz,16-bit stereo).

So my workaround is to create a file from my edits in MPEG-4v2 video compression, 22KHz,16-bit stereo audio PCM (MSP6.0 doesn't like MPEG-3 audio compression for some reason), and then take that AVI into WME4.1 and encode as an ASF with the same video compression, but MPEG-3 audio compression.

You'd think it's cumbersome, but the MPEG-4 compression is really fast. And it looks great on the web:
http://coffeefromhell.com

Cheers!

- Aryko

[Patrick]

Aryko, I guess I'm getting senile but I now remember that I had a "trial" version of MSP6.0 installed before I reformatted. It may have been that MSP that had the option of selecting MPEG4 under Save as type:. I don't have MSP6.0 currently installed because I found MSP5.2 to be superior to use with the Mill2/RR-S.

I checked out the Ulead link you supplied and according to it, 5.2 does not support ASF. However, it also states that 5.2 does not support MP3, but I use MP3 with 5.2 so what does it all mean? I think it means nobody really knows what's going on!

I tried to view your video clips, but even with a 56k modem, I ran out of patience. I thinks it's finally time to go cable or ADSL.

This may or may not be a dumb question, but since I have your attention I'll ask it any way. To archive edited videos on burned Cds, is there any advantage to convert an AVI compressed with MPEG-4 (v2 or v3) to an ASF, or is it best to just leave it as a compressed AVI?

[Fred H]

Hi,
Look at this, on the M$ site: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/i...ools/tools.asp you can find that Media Tools support Adobe Premiere by a plugin

quote:
-----------------------
On a machine with Adobe Premiere installed, download and install Windows Media Tools. Tool will appear as a "Save to ASF" option in Adobe Premiere.
-----------------------
I wonder if it works with MSP? I'm sure it doesn't.

On the other site, M$ doesn't support MPEG4 v1-v3 in the future, but ISO MPEG4 v7.
I should ask: how to use ISO MPEG4 v7? Where to download the codec? How to install this codec?
I couldnt find more about ISO MPEG4 just that this codec was accepted by ISO. Good news, a standard format is allways the safest, and I'd like to reformulate Patrick's question pointing to the ISO MPEG4 and archive of videos.
More info, ideas, knowledges about this, are welcome.

Fred H



[This message has been edited by Fred H (edited 18 November 2000).]

[Aryko]

Fred, interesting, about the Adobe Premiere plug-in - except you couldn't pay me to use Premiere.

Patrick, I agree that Ulead seems to be a bit inconsistent with what they support. AFAIK MP3 support is standard, to a point - I can bring in MP3 audio to my projects, but I have to save as PCM audio. Trying to select anything other than PCM (like MP3) gives me an error message.

Did you try the "slow" connection for my page? I tried to optimize it for 56k connections. Cable or DSL will do a world of good, however.

As for archiving, you will notice a bit of a quality drop from AVI/MPEG4 to ASF/MPEG4, but there is a significant compression. For example, a recent project I did was 15 minutes long; a huge file in DV format, then converted to 320x240 MPEG4 AVI (15 fps) it weighed in at 73 Megs. Converted to 320x240 ASF (5 fps) it came down to 11 Megs.

The cost of CDRs being what they are, if your project is 10 minutes or less, I'd leave it in DV format just so you can re-edit it later if you want. Otherwise I think I'd stick with the AVI format because you can edit it as well - I haven't tried, but I'd forsee problems with editting ASF. I convert to ASF strictly for web presentation anyway.

I think a project with 320x240 15fps MPEG4 settings could put about 2 hours on a CDROM.

- Aryko

[Fred H]

Aryko, I do not use Premiere myself, but MSP6, so the only way for createing .asf is: edit in MSP and run an external encoder.

Fred H

[Patrick]

Fred, I guess the point you're making is that it's dangerous to make use of a format that is not universally accepted. A good example, as you've pointed out, is the video archive here at this forum. How many of those videos can't readily be watched by a lot of people now?

Aryko, I used the "slow" connection at your site, but the video was so choppy (due to the necessary evil of being greatly compressed) that I soon gave up. IMHO, I'm afraid that internet video is only practical for use with high speed connections.

Interesting what you're saying about your experiences with MP3. In my case I can compress the audio in MSP5.2 using MP3 when I'm saving a video, but I can NOT then play this video back in MSP5.2 and hear any sound! However, if I play the video back using Windows Media Player there's no problem. Go figure, eh? Sounds like this is different than your situation. Is that correct?

I don't quite understand why there necessarily would be a quality drop using ASF/MPEG4 as opposed to AVI/MPEG4. If image size and frame rate were the same (which they weren't in your example), is there any advantage to using one format over the other in regards to file size? And if file size is the same, is there any difference in perceived image quality?

[Aryko]

Fred: I know there's an option to "save as" ASF in MSP6. I just don't use it because you're limited to the M$ templates for ASF and I think they all suck... so I use the external encoder.

Patrick: I seem to recall being able to encode in MP3 audio with MSP5.2, I wonder why this didn't carry over to MSP6. As for the comparison between ASF and AVI files encoded with MPEG4, I think I'll have to do some comparison testing.

- Aryko