Marvel eTV + OCHI

[AVminor]

I am planning on getting a Matrox eTV primarily to have a TV tuner and a decent video (G450)card.

Because I have a DV camera, I plan to do video capture with a generic OCHI-compliant IEEE 1394 card. (Getting an RT2000 isn't in the cards right now.)

I would just like to pose a few questions to the experts who contribute to this forum:

Q1. Can the MPEG2 from the eTV be mixed with the DV input using the software that comes in the box with the eTV? Can this then be output in one form back to DV, to VHS, or to disk (as an MPEG) after editing?

Q2. Has anyone used an OCHI card? Some makers of proprietary (non OCHI-compliant) cards claim that OCHI cards may cause dropped frames and mosaic noise, but I suspect that they may be saying this just to justify their higher prices and to lock people into their software upgrade path.

Q3. I am assuming that there is no reason that the operation of these cards (eTV+OCHI) would conflict. Could anyone see a flaw in this thinking?

Q4. I am running a ABIT BH6 Rev 1.0 with a Celeron 333 (128MB of memory). This is too slow to do analog capure reliably with the eTV, but I would be taking any analog other than live TV and screen captures and running them through the analog in on my DV camcorder anyway. Nevertheless, any issues with processor speed? (Upgrading a BH6 Rev 1.0 is tricky business... most it could handle would be a 700mhz celeron with a Slot 1 adapter card, assuming it survives a bios flash.)

Any thoughts on these topics would be greatly appreciated.

[Dr Mordrid]

1. Probably. VideoStudio4 supports both MPEG and DV capture & playback. The only problem will be the max rez you can capture using MPEG affecting the quality when scaled up for use in a DV timeline. Also the footage that doesn't match the project settings will have to be recompressed to the project codec, which can degrade quality.

2. OHCI cards work just fine if you have a decent DV codec to use with them. The one provided with DirectX 7 and earlier was drekware. The one that comes with DirectX 8 is much better, so an update in that direction should be considered.

3. The eTV and a decent OHCI card should work fine together. OHCI's work with the Marvel G400-TV and there are very few fundamental differences between it and the eTV other than the codec used to compress the video.

4. That mainboard is a bit long in the tooth. I'd start looking around for something else if you can afford it.

Suggestion:

If money is a concern as regards updating that system why not reconsider the capture card in favor of the Marvel G400-TV? It uses hardware compression instead of the eTV's software which means a much lower CPU requirement. Also, the G400 is actually a faster 2D/3D graphics card than the G450 is. Just check the evaluations anywhere. The G450 was mainly created as an OEM product.

With your system you would then be able to capture full frame MJPeg video with your existing setup, which would also be much easier to convert to DV than the half frame MPEG's you'd be able to capture with the CeleronII upgrade.

Unfortunately the Marvel G400 comes with Avid Cinema, which is drekware. This would also require you to purchase VideoStudio4 separately (<$100), but your system would be much more capable and the end cost would be lower than upgrading for eTV use. Since the Marvel G400-TV is also a dualhead you can also set it up for DVDMax output, which means you can output to the Marvels video output anything MediaPlayer can play. This includes DV, MPEG or whatever. Neat, 'eh?

This would also give you an upgfade path. VideoStudio4 would provide MPEG-1/2 export from the get-go and MPEG-1/2 captures once you can afford to update the mainboard and CPU.

Dr. Mordrid


[This message has been edited by Dr Mordrid (edited 22 November 2000).]

[AVminor]

Dr. Mordrid (and others who follow this open thread):

I believe that I should try to understand your response precisely before going out and acquiring a Marvel card.

After reading various posts in this forum for nearly six months, I feel that I know about as much about a Marvel G400-TV as anyone who has never actually seen one could know!

However, my sense from talking to someone at Matrox is that the Marvel G400-TV is NFL (not for long!) and that a big push will be made on the G450-eTV. In fact, I was all set to go out and get either a Marvel G400-TV or a Marvel G400 MAX + RR-G combo a few months ago until I heard about the G450-eTV. I've also found myself giving recent thought to the new ATI Radeon All-In-Wonder. Even the folks at Matrox seem to be playing down MJPEG in favor of MPEG 2. So, does it really make sense to invest money in soon-to-be-obselete equipment?

In the process of reading this forum and others, I learned that I wanted things like optical stablization, progressive scan and DV in my camera, but was not willing to pony up for a 3CCD camera, so settled for RGB filtering. So, now I am the proud owner of a new Canon Optura Pi -- which, incidentally, is a wonderful camera. Of course, this pretty well blew my budget for the year. So, now I am scrapping as I now try to figure out how to edit the video. (I put a priority on getting a good camera first!)

The dealer from which I bought the camera (which is also a Matrox RT2000 reseller) told me that the industry trend was going in the direction of OCHI-compliant IEEE 1394 "firewire" cards instead of soon-to-be-obselete proprietary firewire card variants designed to be run with specific software packages. Thus, I picked up my OCHI card and a firewire cable and am now returning to my original issue. I have got VHS footage and several avi and jpeg files stored on various CDs that I want to drop into my projects. I also want to be able to capture some live TV footage as well as screen clips from interactive entertainment software.

So, I am back to where I started: looking at the TV/video cards (and video editing software) again. At the same time, I am trying to avoid pulling apart my entire system and getting another motherboard just now. I have only had the ABIT BH6 for about a year and a half and would prefer to wait until memory standards get through changing again before investing in a new motherboard.

What I am trying to understand is how a Marvel G-400 TV that creates MJPEG is going to produce better quality than DV through the OCHI card. I thought the whole point of DV and firewire was higher resolution and no loss. It is digital, right? So why would you run an analog video feed from a DV camera into the BOB of a Marvel to get an MJPEG? Seems like you'd be getting generation loss on that. Wouldn't it be better to use the OCHI card for DV-in/out and the video capture card just for video from a TV-in? And wouldn't it be better to take an AVI and covert it to DV with the editing program? Or are you really better off playing it out via a TV out and capturing it to DV via an analog-in on
the camera? If the latter is favored, then would that be a viable solution for MPEG 2 as well?

The dual head thing with the TV output is neat, but I am trying to figure out how it fits into the DV scenario. And why would Matrox be trying to obselete the G400-TV and jump on the MPEG 2 bandwagon with rival ATI if MJPEG was so much better? I guess I am not sure what I am going to lose with MPEG 2 (which is supposedly, DVD quality) probably because I have never tried to edit it with DV footage.

Anyway, I am hoping to figure this out soon so I can go out and get what I need.

Thanks so much for input on this.

[AVminor]

To All:

Sorry was so long winded with last post, but really could use some help with this!

Thanks.

[jeffw]

I upgraded my Abit BH6.
It was relatively cheap, and very easy.
I got a Celeron 566 and I'm running it at 707MHz. I also added 128MB PC100 RAM.
I burned it in overnight with some system tests and there's no problem.
The only issue was that the heatsink/fan didn't fit/sit flush with the CPU's surface, so I had to monkey with it a bit to get it right.

[Dr Mordrid]

Please note that I said that the Marvel G400-TV might be a better solution for the existing system and for the upgrade path that is being proposed. Even with this new setup you won't be able to capture analog video at full frame with the eTV's MPEG-2 mode. That takes something north of 900mhz.

Since full frame MJPeg can be captured on the Marvel G400-TV using a very minimal 300+ mhz system it's a more practical way of importing full frame analog video if this option becomes necessary. Just one more tool for the toolbox, and the more you have the better.

Why be able to fully utilize analog capture when you've go so far to get DV? There are a couple of good reasons;

1. If you can import analog at full frame resolution you're still in business if the OHCI board goes south in the midst of a project. Just use MJPeg at high quality imported from the cams S-Video port.

2. You can also use the Marvel (or eTV) to capture uncompressed analog video. THIS is the best way to generate high quality MPEG-1, MPEG-2 or DivX/MPEG-4 video.

Why not encode DV straight to MPEG? Because in many color areas or lighting situtations the limited colorspace of DV (4:1:1 for NTSC, 4:2:0 for PAL) can cause severe block artifacts in the resulting MPEG clip. Some MPEG encoders allow for 4:1:1 to 4:4:4 interpolation to reduce this (TMPGEnc can do this), but it's not a consistant solution.

In addition with the VideoStudio4 editor the Marvel G400-TV also can be used to capture BOTH MPEG-1 and MPEG-2, just as the eTV can in the same software. All that's currently needed is Flying Dutchmans YUY2 patch. In future drivers this won't even be necessary. Again, one more tool....

On another issue: the RT-2000 IS an OHCI card and can be used from OHCI enabled editors like MSPro6 etc. The limitation is that it's realtime features, analog capture and 3D effects are not available. On the other hand its organic wipes are available to MSPro & co. for use as wipes. Even so there is now good information that there will be a MSPro6 realtime plugin for the RT-2000. A European studio chief got that from Ulead Europe.

As far as the "higher quality" of DV goes, that's not entirely a fact. While you don't have the capture losses inherent with analog capture you lose something else: colorspace resolution. As noted in the above paragraph on creating MPEG's this can cause problems. It's also problematic when using bluescreens or other types of keyed effects, especially for amatures with imperfect lighting and studio conditions.

Don't get me wrong on this. For most uses DV delivers very high quality. It's just not the panacea that some would have you believe it is. It won't be until DV is upgraded to the 4:2:2 colorspace analog delivers. THAT is when we will finally be abke to get rid of analog sources.

Dr. Mordrid



[This message has been edited by Dr Mordrid (edited 23 November 2000).]

[AVminor]

Dr. Mordrid

Thanks for that eloquent response.

Let me sumarize what I think I have learned from this:

1) MPEG-2 capture really takes a lot of horsepower -- 900mhz is at the high end of available systems today. Thus, the eTV is not something that most people are going to be able to use for a while.

Question: Is the ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon any better? ATI claims that all you need is 500mhz. I am wondering if the Rage Theater
chipset makes a difference for MPEG caputure
and playback. Seems like Matrox is missing the market if they are coming out with a less expensive eTV card that only works for supermachines.

2) MJPEG is the best way to capture video because you do not suffer the color loss of DV nor the frame loss of MPEG. Furthermore you can convert MJPEG into MPEG or DV whenever you need to.

Question: If that is the case, then why the did Matrox abandon such a great product concept? Seems to me when I talked to someone at Matrox they said that there were a lot of complaints about MJPEG having file size limitations, taking up too much storage, and, in some cases, reliability.
They wanted a product that was going to be more competitive.

Follow-on Question: If you had old VHS tapes, would you run these into the analog-in on the DV Camcorder and go to DV, then bring them into the computer through firewire, or would you run them into a Marvel? Likewise, if you were making VHS tapes, would you output from the camcorder or from the Marvel. Just curious where the color-loss takes place.

For what it is worth, the colors that I am getting on my Canon Optura Pi look pretty darn good for a single CCD DV camera.

[jjn1056]

I would guess Matrox is trying to phase out it's mjpeg based products because it costs more to make and they seem to have a lot of trouble producing drivers for it.

Matrox seems to be focusing on OEM and most new boxes will have enough horsepower for the software based mpeg2.

OEM's love software solutions because they are always cheap. Look at all those crappy winmodems they sell.

Same money, less product.

peace, john

[Dr Mordrid]

I would add another possible reason for dropping Zorans H/W MJPeg: while perusing the Zoran site the other day I noted that they have NO Windows 2000 WDM driver SDK for download. Just a generic Win9x VfW SDK.

On the other hand most softcodecs I've run into are easy to implement under most any OS and most are OpenDML compliant.

Dr. Mordrid



[This message has been edited by Dr Mordrid (edited 29 November 2000).]