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Swap file- Install it on the boot or on the capture drive?

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  • #16
    Back again,

    Now Patrick, I'm chastising you for even THINKING that I'd ever chastise you !

    Experience here has proved to me time and again that no matter what results I get off my own machines, somewhere, someone will get different results. There are obvious areas that others experiences will give us valuable pointers, many others that are far more subjective.

    What is the role of a swap file in a general manner ? It's to enable the swapping of code or data segments in and out of RAM during operation. During many standard graphic operations it is critical because of the size of graphics files. However, when considering video capture there are two considerations. Firstly is the data swapping - but when capturing multi-megabytes per second, it becomes redundant with seconds (max) of capture starting. In this situation you have to rely on the capability of your HDs to absorb the datarate, and all that the swapfile is achieving is bottlenecking that dataflow (IE by the time it gets to swapping it's contents, the datarate has caused virtual memory to overflow and is directly streaming to the HD itself). Secondly we have to consider head-clashes. This occurs when the HD cache controller has received instructions to write blocks to different sectors of the same physical HD. If the swapfile resides on the same physical HD as the captured stream then all this can do distract the heads from the constant write flow of the video file, and position them at the location of the swapfile. In extreme cases (especially where the capture file has not been pre-allocated), this could actually cause the capture file to fragment (around the swapfile) and the heads to seek across the tracks continually in order to satisfy both demands.

    In theory (again), having the capture and prime drives (assuming that the swapfile is on the prime drive) on the same IDE header could also result in bottlenecking of instructions within the HD controller, but these should logically be less than than physical head-seeks.

    In conclusion, I can agree that extra RAM can help out while editing,but since the size of RAM is so small in comparison to the flow of an incoming videostream, it has no relevance in this respect.

    BTW, all this has absolutely no bearing at all on the problem of capturing high contrast video, in which case the problem is (usually) situated in the inability of analogue capture cards to resolve transient dataflow above it's own peak limit. In this case, the datarate must be reduced, either by normalising the peaks using an external filter or by increasing the compression rate to limit the datarate trhough the capture device.

    As always, this is my own POV and is open to criticism/denial as folks see fit.

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    • #17

      Chris, that's the longest post of yours I've seen in a long time. It made perfect sense too! I've returned my 200MB fixed size swapfile to the outer edge of my boot drive using Norton Utilities Speed Disk. I guess now I'll hear from someone that this is a no-no.

      In regards to analog capture cards having problems capturing "high contrast" video, this will be what finally drives me to get a DV capture card. I'm happy with everything that the Mill2/RR-S combination does EXCEPT it's inability to cope with supposed "high contrast" video. It's frustrating that anything that even hints at being brighter than the rest of the scene is enough to cause the RR to choke and produce corrupted frames. Cranking the compression up helps but sacrificing overall image quality is not the way I want to deal with this problem much longer.

      I just want to add that the tip submitted by Marijn about a Windows setting called "conservative swapfile use" is great. Prior to doing this tweak, anytime that I opened up Cacheman I would see that my swapfile was being accessed even though I have 192MB of RAM. With this setting in place I haven't noticed the swapfile in use during "normal" operations yet.

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      • #18
        Hi Patrick,
        i have the same problems with you (Mill2/RRS)as far as the white and black bands are corncerned and these bands always start on the right hand side on either bright scenes or (sometimes) in zoom-in/out scenes.
        I usually set the registry setting (for overclocking) between 55 and 60 and most of the times i don't have any problems capturing in 704*576 (except from some bright scenes).
        For the swap file know, it does not rest on
        the capture drive and i have set it mannualy to 256MB/Min/Max. I have performed some tests having system monitoring active during captures and i've noticed that the system never accessed the swap file.
        (System is : PII-350 @ 392 (3,5*112) no special cooling, 196Mb RAM PC-133, Quantum 6,4Gb (5400 rpm ATA33 on a promise ultra 66 as master-0) as boot drive with swap file, Maxtor DMax-40+ 30Gb (ATA-66, 7200rpm, promise cntrlr master-1) as capture drive, CD-ROM and CD-Recorder on the secondary motherboard controller.



        ------------------
        mits
        mits,
        System specs: primary : Asus P5B Dlx/Wifi, C2Duo E6600 with thermalright 120 and 120mm Scythe S-Flex
        model E, 2 Gb Ram Kingston HyperX PC6400, MSI RX1950Pro with ViVo, 2 * WD3200AAKS, Sound Blaster Audigy ES, NIC onborad, IEE1394 TI onboard, dvd-rw Nec/Sony Optiarc AD-7173A, dvd-rom Pioneer 106-s, Win XP SP2. Secondary : Asus P4B266-E, P4 2GHz (Northwood), ram 512 MB DDR400 , 2*80 Maxtor, vga asus 9600XT with vivo, sound card c-media 8738 onboard, NIC D-Link 538TX, dvd-rw sony dru500AX, cd-rw yamaha 2100E, Win2k SP4.

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        • #19
          Patrick

          The Norton Speed Disk 2000 is, IMHO and to the best of my knowledge, by far the best defragger that exists on this planet. It knocks all the others that I've seen into a cocked hat. It has a unique and logical algorithm and, if you have a fixed swapfile on any shared partition, it allows you to place it where it works best: right at the beginning. Try that with the pathetic MS/Intel combined effort! To boot, SD 2000 is faster.

          What you should NOT do, IMO, is let Norton System Works take over your system. I use it a lot, but when I ask it to do something. When installing it, always opt for manual operation.

          ------------------
          Brian (the terrible)
          Brian (the devil incarnate)

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          • #20
            Beware of Norton System Works.... I had some problems after installing it with poor video playback (jittery). I tried all kinds of things and after I performed a registry cleanup (with Norton) I had major issues. I have not done a fresh install for almost 3 years and had a very strong performing machine. I figured it was time for a formatting and start form scratch. I did this and installed all SW. Checked out everything and I had a screamer. I was very pleased.... I went to install Norton SystemWorks 2000 and for some strange reason I read the readme file. About half way through it said that there are issues with Promise Controller cards..blah..blah.. driver version blah... I figured why dork up my system with something that I don't use to begin with (really) and constantly wants to run in the background or load something during startup. Maybe the new drivers wouldn't cause a problem, but I do know that I have upgraded my computer numerous times, installed, uninstalled SW and HW, troubleshot and repaired numerous problems with apps and HW, applied several tweaks here and there and have never had to resort to a format C:\....

            Just my personal experience.
            WinXP Pro SP2 ABIT IC7 Intel P4 3.0E 1024M Corsair PC3200 DCDDR ATI AIW x800XT 2 Samsung SV1204H 120G HDs AudioTrak Prodigy 7.1 3Com NIC Cendyne DVR-105 DVD burner LG DVD/CD-RW burner Fortron FSP-300-60ATV PSU Cooled by Zalman Altec Lansing MX-5021

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            • #21
              Hi Patrick,

              Always good to have a chat, especially with old friends. Glad that it made sense too. In the formative years of my programming career we actually had to specify file creation parameters down to block size and "bucket" (tricky one to get your head round, try and imagine a stack of platters - a "bucket" is a section through the platters such that the tracks on each platter line up). Bit different from the Createfile command on modern mainframes, or even better the "file/new" menu options in windows. So I know a little bit about head movement.

              Regarding high contrast, bear in mind that the "effective" dataflow has to be the same whatever capture device you use. OK, it isn't ideal that RR-S "clips" (in hi-fi terms), but if you are using DV which is limited to a set transfer rate then the only way that it is going to deal with the same scene is by reducing the peak flow internally (ie by dropping resolution or by extra compression). DV is great, but don't get into a mindset that fools you into taking scenes that won't capture smoothly.

              Or, as one of our Computer papers used to say "GIGO" - Garbage In, Garbage Out.

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              • #22
                Sciascia

                I did say you must not let Works 2000 take over your system. I have it installed on all my computers, including for video editing, for use when required. I tell it to do exactly what I want it to do.

                I admit I don't know about interactions with Promise controllers, because I don't need one.

                And the Speed Disk function is used regularly, without problems. I repeat, it is a second-to-none defragger, IMHO.

                ------------------
                Brian (the terrible)
                Brian (the devil incarnate)

                Comment


                • #23

                  When I installed Norton SystemWorks originally, I found that CrashGuard only made my system more unstable. That program was terminated quickly enough. I then turned off (only to be summoned when needed) System Doctor. Normally it wants to do it's thing all the time, but I don't want a utility tying up system resources unnecessarily. Norton AntiVirus appears to work fine, and I like the apparently unlimited updates. Last but not least, I think Speed Disk works great. If there are supposed issues with Promise controllers, I haven't noticed any problems with my FastTrack/33 so far.

                  Chris, glad we're having this opportunity to "chat". I have a question on this comment of yours:

                  "...but if you are using DV which is limited to a set transfer rate then the only way that it is going to deal with the same scene is by reducing the peak flow internally (ie by dropping resolution or by extra compression). DV is great, but don't get into a mindset that fools you into taking scenes that won't capture smoothly."

                  Geez, I hope that DV recording and capture isn't as fraught with problems as analog capture (with the RR-S). These "high contrast" scenes that I was referring to earlier are nothing out of the ordinary. A white fence in a wide shot of a yard on a sunny day for instance. I can't imagine you mean that I have to avoid having ANY slightly brighter object in a shot to avoid capture problems!

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                  • #24
                    DV certainly does have it's moments, often related to codec quality (DX8 should fix most of these), device control and type-1/type-2 issues.

                    Dr. Mordrid

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                    • #25
                      Some people have found similar results with the high bright signals. Part of the problems are probably on the side of the capturecard, just because a very bright part should be seen as any other part. But the signal of the camera is probably a little strange as well. A very bright part of the video is a small video signal. So white is low voltage out and black is high voltage (composite video). Between every line and field there is an even lower voltage to indicate the end (and beginning) of a line or field (blanking voltage). One may assume that that the capture device sees (for what reason) the (too) bright parts as new lines or fields and wants to capture a new fields, just because it thinks there is one. Now here things can really go wrong (as you've noticed). There are a few things you can try to solve any of these problems (and probably more).

                      You may want to try to have the videosignal go through a video first (straight, no recording). Maybe this will correct the levels.

                      If this doesn't works, maybe you can try to experiment with the grounding of your system. An offset in the signals can be caused by a bad grounding, which may cause your bright white signal to become near the blanking levels.

                      An other thing is to experiment with some electronic components (only if you know what you are doing). Maybe you can apply an offset to the signal or adjust the levels.

                      These are the only things I can come up with. I don't experience these problems myself, but wish you luck.

                      Marijn

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                      • #26
                        Yo

                        I wasn't trying to imply that DV is worse, or more difficult than analogue. Rather the opposite in most respects. For instance, I recently installed an ADS Pyro into a machine that already contained a G200 Marvel plus all of the associated drivers/codecs/apps. As you know, I'd normally recommend a full re-format and install before installing any kind of video hardware, but I was in a hurry...

                        It took me less than 10 minutes to get installed and capturing DV from my camcorder (using VS4), and has been rock-solid ever since, despite adding a variety of other capture/edit apps. However, the set datarate of DV is comparible with an RR-S (or -G, or Marvel) running 6.6:1 compression (appx 3MB/Sec), with the result that the majority of footage looks about the same quality. What you DON'T get is dropped frames, since a DV stream is a pure transferral of data. But certainly you can get a degree of pixellation over fast-moving or high-contrast scenes. For out-and-out quality, I'd still say that a well-specified Analogue system, properly set up using every trick in the book and a few that the book doesn't know about, will yield better results. But it will be a damned sight harder to achieve and you'll have to work like hell to maintain it.

                        DV = Easy & Acceptable
                        Analogue = Muchos Work & very variable

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                        • #27
                          For out-and-out quality, I'd still say that a well-specified Analogue system, properly set up using every trick in the book and a few that the book doesn't know about, will yield better results.
                          Now that's an interesting statement! Chris, I wanna know what those tricks are "that the book doesn't know about".

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                          • #28

                            Marijn, thanks for your suggestions. One thing I've been trying as an experiment is to use MotionPerfect to eliminate the corrupted frames. It works very well at detecting and replacing them, but it also takes a long time to render the AVI file(s). It obviously would be much more efficient to prevent the corruption from occurring in the first place (if possible).

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