interlaced Marvel MJPEG => other compression for best TV output probs

[ccc]

Hi all ,

I 'm thinking of archiving some MJPEG 704*576 to CD, so I tried some compression MPEG, DIVX,...
My problem is I want to be able to see the video on TV like it is in MJPEG: interlaced (Marvel Field order B ?) so it gives nice fast movements on TV.
Compressing to MPEG without deinterlacing, gives a file with interlace-lines that also appears on TV ;(
Let's say I use MPEG with deinterlacing => I get shacky playback on TV/screen
Correct me if I am wrong, but as the Marvel has Hardware MJPEG decompressing when you pause the screen you can see it switches between the two fields not showing the interlace-lines.
But when I play the MPEG file, it does not use the MJPEG Hardware, and makes frames visible on Screen + TV with both fields together ?

So what can I do about that? (aside buying Hardware MPEG decoder (if that helps))

Thx for helping me out!

[Dr Mordrid]

What MPEG encoder are you using? I use TMPGEnc and it works fine.

Dr. Mordrid

[ccc]

I tried BBmpeg, LSX, Panasonic
what's the difference in TMPGEnc then ?

[Karlson]

I have a similar problem. When I encode using TmpgEnc with deinterlace option to both, VCD or SVCD, I have quite a good picture. But as soon as I have a text running from right to left in the bottom of the screen (aka subtitle), it looks as if it is doing two steps left, one step right. At least it is not at all smooth.

Dr. Mordrid, have you any idea?

Regards,
Karlson.

[ccc]

Well I tried Tiramisu encoder as you stated. output mpeg is indeed better for interlaced parts than other encoders (tried orede A,B no difference?), but the problem is the same, encoded mpeg frames have visible interlace-lines, and played back on TV, it gives some fuzzy output, not clear as the MJPEG file.
Maybe I'll post some examples this evening ...
thx
PS: are you using a MPEG card, or via the Marvel ?

[Sciascia]

Are you seeing the different fields or are you seeing the Horizontal Blanking intervals. I believe there is an option under DVDMax options to enable field based scaling. It may or may not be what you are looking for.

[ccc]

Hi Sciascia,
you make a point! I tried the different options in the DVD max options, and the latest (about the frames...) let dissapear the interlace-lines on TV (e.g. when pausing,...)
BUT while the output is better, the movement is not smooth, it's like you'd have deinterlaced the file, if "uses" frames.

I made an example the <A HREF="http://www.chez.com/gayolle/avi/mjpeglowestavi.exe">original file</A> (MJPEG lowest compresion 3.4MB rename to avi)
and <A HREF="http://www.chez.com/gayolle/avi/mjpeg1000kbm1v.exe">an mpeg from Tiramisu </A>(1000kbps rename to mpeg)
Maybe you see what I mean when there's a fast movement...

Hope someone can help ...
Thx!

[Marijn]

I get the same results when I keep the MPG at 704x576, so what I usually do, is create an MPG file at a lower resolution. 352x288 gives very good results and at a 2048k datastream is very good at a normal television. (Don't look at 10 inches away from to the TV, but a little more)

I'll be watching this thread, because I am interested in the other solution, but this sure works for me.

Marijn

[ccc]

Marijn,
I could do it that way, but then I'm loosing much resolution: the MJPEG file is taken from D8 cam, and is at highest res,it's fantastic clear, full of colours, light, ...
At lower resolution, there is less light,the movement is less smooth, ...
I know, you can't always see it, but why buy a Marvel then ...
The problem I have now of course: fantastic picture, but 3 Gig for 15 mins ... When you see DVD compr+quality, it must be possible to put the 15 mins on CD whith the same quality (I hope...)

[Sciascia]

I used bitrate viewer to check out the properties of your clip. This is what it came up with:

Num. of picture read: 139
Stream type: MPEG-1 CBR
Resolution: 704*576
Aspect ratio: 4:3 PAL 625
Framerate: 25.00
Nom. bitrate: 1000000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 24
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 8
Pic. structure: FRAME
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Linear
Quantscale type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive

Part of your problem is that you are using MPEG1 which is Progressive. That will definitely cause motion problems. Have you tried MPEG2? Is this for VCD or just to be able to play file off of disc?

If you are going to play off of disc on a computer, try MPEG2. If you are trying to play on a set top DVD player, you could try SVCD which like DVD is also MPEG2. It is a bit more complicated, depending on which apllications you have already or how much money you want to spend.

If you are looking for a high quality, small file size, fast compression, try Virtual Dub with the MPEG4v3 codec. There is a link to the one with compression capability o this site under "downloads" (the new one in Media Player will not compress).

If you are hell-bent on MPEG, I would definitely vere towards MPEG2, which at the data rate that you compressed the other file at, would look pretty good in my opinion.

Have you tried the "Advanced options" in TMPGEnc? Double click on each item to open a dialog and experiment with them. It is a matter of trial and error and personal taste.

One other thing is that compressing from MJPEG to MPEG is going to create a lower quality product. You are going from on lossy compression to another. Look into HuffYUY capturing. There are a lot of posts on this sight. It won't look to pretty playing back, but it compresses into MPEG2 nice and fast and the quality difference is huge.

[ccc]

hi Sciascia ,

Thx for the info over Mpeg 1 compression, now I know it won't be able to achieve what I want with MPEG1 ...
So what I want is keep the best quality out of my 15 min Highest qual. MJPEG clip(3Gb) and be able to put it on 1 CD (>650 MB)
The samples given, are compressed at the lowest quality to be "Internet-friendly". Normally I use best qual.
What encoding program do you recommend me for the MPEG2 compression ? (I read some things about LSX not having much difference between MPEG1-2 compression)
PS: I tried the YUV2 hack, but it does not work for me ... (Green display+crash).
thx!

[ccc]

hi Sciascia ,

Thx for the info over Mpeg 1 compression, now I know it won't be able to achieve what I want with MPEG1 ...
So what I want is keep the best quality out of my 15 min Highest qual. MJPEG clip(3Gb) and be able to put it on 1 CD (>650 MB)
The samples given, are compressed at the lowest quality to be "Internet-friendly". Normally I use best qual.
What encoding program do you recommend me for the MPEG2 compression ? (I read some things about LSX not having much difference between MPEG1-2 compression)
PS: I tried the YUV2 hack, but it does not work for me ... (Green display+crash).
thx!

[Sciascia]

I would have to agree woith the doc and go with TMPGEnc. It is the best quality I've seen so far. And I have tried a lot of MPEG2 Encoders. I am in the preocess of trying to determine how feasible it would be for me to feed MJPEG into TMPGEnc and to see what the quality is like. I would have replied sooner, but I've been on the road alot this week and just got in the door 20 minutes ago. I'll keep you updated if I find anything interesting.

[ccc]

thx Sciascia,

I tried some encoding with Tmpenc, MPEG2 and indeed, it 's far better that the MPEG 1! I think I'll experiment somewhat and stick with it!
Thx!

[Grigory]

Hi,

Actually, MPEG1 can be good for interlaced video too.
Yes, it encodes in frames, but mpeg2 can also encode in frames only, as LSX encoder does.
The problem you get is inability of decoder to set field order according to what was used in original movie. This is because mpeg1 does not contain any codes for field order.
The TV output hardware has to use some default field order, and it may happen that it will not be correct for your video.

In mpeg2 you can use frame encoding, but in addition to what was shown on diagnostic listing above, there must be a line with upper field first Yes/No flag. The decoder uses that flag and sets correct field order.

Working with mpeg1, you must track how it sets the field order by yourself.

For example, my DV movies are correclty converted to mpeg1 in LSX and Panasonic mpeg1 encoders. I can play them with H+ decoder card and see smooth motion. But DVDMAX mode always displayed the video with inversed field order, because of inability to change it in DVDMAX properties.

Mpeg2 enables you to change the field order on encoding stage, but make sure that what is correct for DVDMAX TV output will stay correct with another (hardware) mpeg2 decoder.

Grigory