The future of video cameras?

[Ray Austin]

Ok, here's another one right here.

Although this is very cute, it is very small. I don't have real large hands, but I can tell you that this would be too small for me I think.

Plus from what I can make of it... it looks like it captures only in Mpeg2. Has a thumbnail display for easy viewing and editing? Say what? They think you are going to edit the vids inside the camera? So all this software I bought to make DVD's and edit video is for naught? Yeah right!

So it's basically a trick, they are using compression to be able to do it. DV is 3.5MB/s where as Mpeg2 is normally no where near that high.

Even a 4GB card won't hold at the most near 20mins of DV video. If you compress it you could get close to 2 hours, but if you plan to add effects, graphics and what not... what then?

These camera's will need to be able to record to DV not to even mention HD. Once that comes I think they will have a hard time competing. They are very cute tho'.

[Flying dutchman]

I think 2.5" hard disks are the way to go. They are already available in 80 gigabyte size and can withstand shocks of 100 G. Not to mention the fact that they're affordable.

These hard disks have less than half the size of a packet of cigarettes. One could easily build such a drive into a camera of "normal" mini DV size because the size of the drive is actually smaller than the sum of the sizes of mini-DV tape, head drum, motor, capstan etc. Using DVD mpeg-2 encoding at maximum data rate (9 mbps constant bit rate) there's room for almost 20 hours of video - try to beat that with flash cards.

And there's a nice side-effect of having a fast-spinning disk in a camera: the gyroscopic effect actually stabilizes the camera...

[Hulk]

The problem with disk drives in a mobile application is still the possibility of crashing the heads and losing all video. I know that mobile drives are very tough, and the new IBM drives even have "g" sensors that park the heads quickly if collision is impending, but the risk is still to great for mission critical work. Flash cards are more reliable in this regard.

I wonder what the rotational inertial of such a small drive is anyway? I doubt it is much, especially considering most of the mass of a disk drive that is rotating is close to the center of rotation, which doesn't add much to the rotational inertia. In addition, if there was a significant gyroscopic effect, there would also be a drop in rpms of the drive during fast rotation of the camera, which would either cause the drive to fail at least momentarily, or require a high-torque moter and large enough power supply to drive it, adding weight and power consumption to a mobile device, which is not a good thing.

Interesting points to ponder.

Mark

[Brian Ellis]

Mark

In earlier threads on the same subject, I have presented similar arguments as yourself re hard drives. I don't believe that this is a likely solution. However, a really heavy (e.g. 2 kg rotor) hard disk in a camcorder could double as an image stabiliser

For pro or semi-pro use, a really robust hard disk in a g-proof suspended casing on the battery belt would be a possibility, but I don't believe this would be a solution for the amateur.

Re memory, I think we are long way from affordable high-Gb range flash cards. For a few bucks, I can archive the tapes, with 1 hour of high-quality DV video. Even IF a Gb of EEPROM came down to $10 (very unlikely), it would still cost $130 to store an equivalent amount of data (obviously less if the video and audio were more highly compressed), but it would still be too expensive for archiving. What does this mean? Archiving would have to be done on some other medium, such as DVDs by data-file transfer. This may not be costly, but it takes time and you must have the local ability to do so. On some of my trips (both professional and holidays), I've used anything up to 6 tapes. That would cost a fortune in EEPROM flash cards to use, until you could get back to base to transfer to other media, even if they were as cheap as present-day ROMs, which would be unlikely.

I guess tape is here to stay for some time yet.

[Flying dutchman]

@Hulk, Brian:

The same limitations (inertia, change in RPM during extremely fast camera pans, whining noise etc) apply to DVD media.
In fact more so, because DVD-R and DVD+R must be written using an uninterrupted data stream. The r/w head is much bulkier and heavier so it is less G-resistant too. All of this didn't stop manufacturers from using them!

Higher-end HDD drives come with 8 mb cache which is enough to buffer 8 seconds of highest-bitrate mpeg-2 video. HDD's are already commonplace in MP3 devices often used by joggers so shocks are probably a non-issue.
And I really didn't think of the drive as a permanent storage option, equip the camera with a standard firewire port and one can upload the footage at 3.5 x speed compared to mini-DV... Plus, one could give the camera GREAT editing facilities that are only possible on a HDD-based system...

[Brian Ellis]

I don't think DVD is ideal, either.

The big advantage of HDD is the ability to record several hours of high-quality video (7.5 hours of DV on 100 Gb). For pro work, the belt-held HDD (especially for HDTV) is probably a good option.

[Flying dutchman]

Hmm:

Mini-DV camera + firewire port + firewire HDD =???

Anyone ever tried that?

[Ray Austin]

there is a solution out there that does this. Can't think of it off hand.

However if you do it the way flying dutchman is describing you must also have a power source for the firewire drive as well.

It can be done tho'.

[Frank Marshall]

Thanks for your thoughts. I accept that the economics of storage are a problem for solid-state memory's short-term prospects in camcorder applications. However, I don't see the DV codec as the last word on video compression either. If MPEG-4 doesn't deliver the right balance of quality vs. compression (I don't know if it can or not) perhaps even more efficient compression algorithms will arrive that can. Various new MPEG codecs are in the works...

[Hulk]

I'm always quite skeptical of temporal compression schemes when used as editable media. Non I-frame MPEG-2 and MPEG4 have always been to slow and buggy in the editor for any editing beyond simple cuts, and I've never really been happy with the final output quality.

I think unless some serious advances in temporal codecs are made for editing these formats I don't want to deal with them when it comes to editing. Perhaps the entire stream could be converted to "I" frame for editing and then reconverted back to a temporal stream upon output, with minimal image degradation.

What I really want is 4:2:2/4:4:4, variable resolution, non-temporal compression with user selectable compression rates and color space, so that I can vary compression and/or color space, and resolution in the camera before recording and transfer this natively to the computer. That way if you're doing compositing you could select 4:4:4 at a low compression and high, less demanding shooting could be accomplished at 4:2:2 with a higher compression rate. For the "average user" these options could be labeled "high quality," "normal quality," and "low quality," or something like that, as is done with digital cameras.

Perhaps a modified DV codec? I'm sure this could be done, and it would create an open spec for various resolutions, color spaces and compression rates for different levels of equipment.

Oh yeah, and while I'm dreaming I'd like it to be affordable.

Mark

[Ray Austin]

yes, and while we are on the dreaming subject I would like a HD-Cam or 3ccd cam in the sub $1500 area.

P.S. I am positive they'd sell like hot-cakes! and just make them record to mini-dv tape for now.

[Ray Austin]

Just found this little article about a 1 inch diameter drive.

It also discusses an opinion of what media camcorders will eventually use more and more. I don't think anyone really knows for sure.

[Ray Austin]

here's yet another article about a 1inch harddrive, but it can hold even more data than the post above.

I think in a year's time or less we could see these devices in camcorders among other things, pda's, cell phones, brain implants...hehehe

If they can make them cheaper, faster than memory it's obvious which one would win.

It's amazing they can cram that much data on such a small device.

[Hulk]

Just thought I'd update this thread with the fact that San Disk just announced they will be releasing a 8GB CF card for $999 in November. And that's list price upon release. Read speed is 9MB/sec. Plenty fast for or HDV.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/30/8gb_flash_card/

- Mark

[Dr Mordrid]

Yup....With cheap/fast/huge memory cards tape and DVD based cams look like they're going the way of the dinosaur. Not near the sensitivity to weather, no mechanisms to speak of and much smaller to store. Best of most all worlds.

Dr. Mordrid