MS Pro 6.0 DV output questions...

[Hulk]

I'm doing a project in which I'll be mixing DV source video with stills and analog captures. I would really appreciate some suggestions regarding the following.

What format should I capture the analog segments? I generally use avi_io and capture in either huffyuv or PICVideo with quality at 19. I assume I should capture 720x480. PICVideo is easier to edit but huffyuv would end up looking better after the final rendering of the project back to the DV camera. I plan on rendering the final project to the camera and then outputting to tape from the camera's analog's outputs. Is it possible to capture straight to DV format using the capture utility included with MS Pro with my AIW? If so would that be the way to go?

What is the difference between type 1 and type 2 DV compression? Which should I use? I assume type 1 since that is what the MS Pro default NTSC project setting uses.

Is DV audio compressed? In MS Pro it appears that it's just straight PCM.

When I play back a test clip rendered to type 1 DV format that was analog captured, windows media player plays the clip at 360x240 instead of 720x480. Why? I noticed that in WMP properties the DV output format is selected at half frame NTSC and there is not option for full frame. This isn't really important as long as the file really is full D1 res.

The default MS Pro NTSC DV template is frame based. Is this correct?

[wkulecz]

Before going any farther, make sure you've installed the DVpatchII form the Ulead web site. Without it MSP is basically useless for DV.

The quarter size playback is the default in Windows media player, a bug prevents you from making full size be the default. This is said to be fixed in directX 8 but I've not upgraded fo find out.

You have to use type 1 DV unless you've installed a type 2 codec and have a firewire card with output drivers for MSP and type 2 DV.

For output to tape your project must be feild based. My Sony is order A in MSP but TMPGEnc gives better output when set to order B so you need to permute the posibilities using short test clips to be sure everything is set right in your workflow

After you've installed the DVpatchII you need to create two new templates in MSP that use NTSC, your camcorder's field order and 12 and 16-bit DV audio. These are the templates for DV in and out. Basically if you are using one of the default templates it won't work right. IMHO a major flaw in ULEAD's patch to not create the new project templates you need.

I don't know of any real-time software only DV codecs that'll work like PICvideo, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. It would be a good solution if the codec did a good job and your machine was fast enough.

Basically to avoid such project setting hassles when I need video from analog sources I usually record the analog to the camcorder and capture it over firewire. Apparently not all camcorders can do this. The new TRVx20 D8 series from Sony can do the analog in to firewire on the fly without recording to tape first -- a real time saver.

I have rendered Marvel DMB1 MJPEG clips to DV type 1 with MSP for use in a project with a slight resize from 704x480 to 720x480. MSP's "smart convert" should do this automatically when you import the analog clip into the DV project. Worked OK, but I find re-recording the analog to DV was slightly better and less hassle overall. YMMV.

For stills, I optimise in photoshop and make 720x480 TIF files for import into MSP.


There is no substitute for testing the various possibilities and making your own judgements as to quality vs workflow convience on your system.

Hope this helps.


--wally.

[Dr Mordrid]

I totally agree that those missing DV presets were a glaring error. I spent a lot of time creating a whole new set of them myself.

As for other softcodecs, have you considered upping your quality on PICVideo to 20? There is a huge step in data rate that occurs between 19 and 20 in that codec. If there's anything I don't like about PICVideo MJPeg it's the non-linearity of the data rates vs. the setting number.

That said I'd capture in HuffYUV and encode from there. It will give you an order of magnitude better quality than capturing in another DCT codec then transcoding the data, especially if you for some reason use DV. DV can be very hard to encode into decent MPEG's, even using the 4:4:4 interpolation mode of TMPGEnc.

Dr. Mordrid

[Hulk]

Wally -

Thanks for the help. One thing though.

<After you've installed the DVpatchII you need to create two new templates in MSP that use NTSC, your camcorder's field order and 12 and 16-bit DV audio. These are the templates for DV in and out.>

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. One template for 12 bit audio and one for 16 bit audio? Why 12bit DV in and 16bit DV out?

Also, in what app do you actually do the firewire capture from the DV camcorder? I haven't gotten my DV camcorder yet but will be very soon. Actually, I have to work with someone elses dv camera this week and I'd like to get a head's up. Can you capture from VideoEditor? The fact that you mention DV in and out templates leads me to believe it to be possible...

What is the difference between type 1 and type 2 DV in tech specs?

Why does DV audio have a greater bandwidth (211KB/sec) and uncompressed linear PCM (188KB/sec)? I would have thought that DV audio would have been a compressed format. Is DV audio some type of compressed multichannel stream?

Thanks again.


Dr Mordrid -

Yes. I also found that PICVideo on quality 20 takes as much space as huffyuv. Except for the editing problem it's better to go with huffyuv. So, for analog video mixed with DV I'll take your advice and capture huffyuv and recode to DV format.

I have to say that its a bit disconcerting to hear that DV doesn't encode to MPEG II too well. Besides using TMPEnc and the highest quality settings, are there any other "tricks" for encoding DV to MPEG II?

[wkulecz]

I use the Vegas Video capture tool. Its a seperate download in the vegas video demo sections on www.sonicfoundry.com. I find Ulead's video capture tool flakey at best, and use it only when I wnat batch capture, which is about never since with the vegas capture tool on w2k I start at the begining and go away. Vegas stops capturing when the video runs out.

You need the 12 and 16 bit audio settings to match the modes your DV camcorder might offer. I think all have 2 channel 16-bit 48k audio. Most Sony's also have a 4 channel 12-bit 32K mode so you can do a "voice over" in a seperate audio only recording pass. Useless to me, but that was the default mode and what I was stuck with until I learned about this "feature".

Video editor cannot capture. The "in" is the files you import. The "out" is set by the template or the settings you use to render an AVI or MPEG in the File->Create menu.

Having the in and out types match minimizes rendering which is a very good thing.

--wally.

[Phil Pugh]

Ahh...

Another 'plus' for a RAPTOR - it installs the DV templates for you - well the 48Khz ones.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr Mordrid:
[B]I totally agree that those missing DV presets were a glaring error. I spent a lot of time creating a whole new set of them myself.

[END QUOTE]